When Your Spouse Dies and You Miss Their Dirty Socks on the Floor

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dirty socks on the floor
(Image/The Livingston Post)
After her husband died unexpectedly, the dirty socks and pants she used to find thrown on the bedroom floor became something she missed.

She avoided washing his last load of laundry as long as she could. Savoring this once-annoying moment as she realized how much she would miss it.

Debbie Wilkins Baisden recounts this story and the life lesson it provided in her article “Stop Being a Butthole Wife.”

Everyone who has ever written about male-female relationships could have predicted what happened next.

Everyone in happy, peaceful marriages read it and said: “Amen, sister! Don’t sweat the small stuff!”

Wives frustrated and angry with their husbands who leave dirty laundry on the floor, and dirty dishes next to the sink said: “I know you’re sad your husband died, but that doesn’t mean we should excuse the disrespectful behavior! I’m not my husband’s maid, and he needs to respect me and pick up after himself!”

And then a guy would reply: “Why do you believe you have the right to command your husband to do things your way, or dictate the terms of your marriage when he feels differently? You’re not his mother!”

And then a married or divorced wife would reply: “The person who does all the cleaning should make the rules!”

And then a married guy would reply: “I suppose that’s what you say and feel when your husband is outside shoveling snow, or fixing the plumbing, or taking garbage to the curb! You feminists have ruined marriage!”

And then a woman would reply: “Actually, you misogynists are the ones who ruined marriage!”

And then more people would internet-scream at each other about who is responsible or to blame for their problems, the premise always being that “If only men/women would stop doing (insert ‘crime’ here), we wouldn’t have all these relationship problems!”

If I Blame Everything on Divorce, Then Nothing is Ever My Fault

That’s my life in a nutshell.

I don’t do it on purpose.

I don’t sit around thinking: This is all totally my fault, but I’ll just blame it on someone or something else for public-relations reasons and trick everyone.

But I do often catch myself blaming divorce for things.

I was popular and well-liked growing up. (Or at least, I THOUGHT I was popular and well-liked, which has the same effect on your mind and body even if it wasn’t true.)

I assumed everyone I met liked me, and I assumed everyone I would meet would like me, and that made me mostly fearless.

I made friends easily. Girls seemed to like me. Friends’ parents, teachers, and coaches all seemed to as well.

I had many friends. Both in high school and college. In two different states because my mom and dad lived in different places.

I struggled with the transition to domesticated, couples-based socializing after my girlfriend/fiancée/wife and I started our life together, and everything converted from big-group activities and parties, to small dinner parties and small-group gatherings.

But as time passed and I matured, I found peace and pleasure with the ebb and flow of being married and couples-based socializing as we all began building careers and families.

Then the hits started coming around age 30.

The fight about where we should live and work.

The birth of our son.

The death of a parent.

The near-universal husband/wife clashes over money, household chores, and how we treated one another when things got rough.

It’s the slow march to divorce most people don’t see coming nor recognize as it’s happening, but it mostly looks the same for everyone in failing or failed marriages.

My wife stopped liking me.

Then, stopped loving me.

She’s not big on pretending, so I felt the change. And one day at a time, it started pecking at my insides.

Next thing I knew, I was sleeping in the guest room and freaking out.

Then, she was gone, and I freaked out harder.

Then—I don’t know. That’s now, I guess. “Then” is now. On April 1, it will be four years since my marriage ended.

It’s a big blur in my head that feels simultaneously lightning-fast and like an agonizing eternity.

I only know this: When the story began, everyone liked me, I wasn’t afraid of anything, and life was awesome. And now? I worry about people liking me. I’m afraid of all kinds of things. And life is just okay.

It’s easy to blame her for my life and feel sorry for myself.

It’s easy to blame her when she goes on vacations with her boyfriend and our old couples friends.

It’s easy to blame her when she goes on trips with our son and families of his new friends from school.

It’s easy to feel: She did this to me. She turned me into someone else, and then dumped the person she made me become.

It’s easy to blame all the hurt and shame and fear and anxiety and inconveniences and difficulties on other people.

I think if men can keep blaming feminism and “nagging wives” for ruining marriage, then men will never have to grow and change.

I think if women can keep blaming misogyny and “shitty husbands” for ruining marriage, then women will never have to grow and change.

Growth and change is hard. Like cooking when you don’t feel like it.

Maybe I’ll just order a pizza.

Maybe someone can start a peaceful-relationship delivery service. Delivering harmony and kindness to our front doors for a small fee.

Nothing Changes Unless We Do

I don’t know Debbie Wilkins Baisden. But as someone helping to popularize the term “shitty husband,” I feel uniquely qualified to guess the following:

Debbie labeling herself a “butthole wife” because she used to complain about her husband’s dirty laundry was NOT to excuse husbands who are slobs, nor to label all wives seeking thoughtfulness and respect from their husbands as “buttholes.”

Me labeling myself a “shitty husband” is NOT me taking on all of the blame for my failed marriage, nor is it to condemn all men who leave laundry on the floor or dishes by the sink as “shitty.”

It’s simply a fun writing convention to talk about where I messed up in my marriage.

Maybe my ex-wife believes she messed up sometimes. I don’t know. I know only that I’m qualified to write about my thoughts, feelings and experiences, and NOT qualified to write about anyone else’s, least of all someone with whom I disagreed with so much, that we ended a marriage with a young child involved.

EVERYTHING is Our Responsibility

Guys LOVE to come back at me with: “This is all just theory and conjecture! If guys do all the stuff you say, they’re just going to get run over by their domineering, emotional, bitchy wives!”

To which I’d reply:

Don’t marry anyone who is domineering, bitchy, or whose emotional reactions you consider intolerable.

I’m simply NOT blaming myself or men for failed marriages. Never have; never will.

I am identifying all of the ways I messed up or made decisions which led to divorce, and asking myself the question: If I hadn’t messed up, and had I made better decisions, isn’t it possible that the events leading to divorce wouldn’t have happened in the first place, and that our marriage would have thrived?

Another good question: If instead of waiting for my wife to grow and change, I proactively grew and changed, isn’t it possible my wife would have felt and responded differently? Isn’t it possible most of our fights would have never happened at all?

Single people can point fingers at certain behaviors and decide for themselves that they’re unacceptable and that they’d never be in a relationship with someone who showcased them. Single people are responsible for their own happiness. Single people are not beholden to others.

Yet, single people almost ALWAYS (to the tune of 95%) pursue long-term relationships with other people, presumably because they believe a long-term relationship will make them happy.

However, the entry fee for a relationship is trading in your Single Person card and exchanging it for a In A Relationship one.

And now, in a certain context, you don’t get to be yourself anymore.

Marriages and Relationships Aren’t Two People Doing Something Together

We talk about two people getting married. And now they’re a couple. Two different people. But a team.

It’s kind of true. But as soon as it gets hard and one person feels like the other is a bad teammate, people start looking for another team to join, or to go back to being a team of one.

But I don’t believe a marriage is two people doing something together.

I believe a marriage is ONE thing. And it’s built from two parts.

What makes an airplane fly? The wings or the engine?


Two different parts, which if EITHER stops functioning, the entire thing goes down.

People fight, fight, fight, fight, and fight some more because they want their spouse to admit to being wrong and acknowledge that he or she was “right.”

And people fight, fight, fight, fight, and fight that EXACT SAME FIGHT until they die or divorce because the husband’s or wife’s goal is to win the fight.

When the airplane’s engine wins enough fights, one of the wings will fall off.

When the airplane’s wings win enough fights, the engine or engines will start to lose thrust.

And then, boom. Fiery explosions and sadness.

The intentions of critical airplane parts should be to maximize the aircraft’s performance, lest they all explode and die.

The intentions of husbands and wives should be to maximize the performance—NOT of themselves, but of the marriage as a unit.

The widowed Debbie missed picking up her husband’s annoying dirty laundry because the marriage was WAY bigger than just her, or just her feelings, or just the laundry, or just anything.

And she shared that experience because it mattered, just as I share mine.

But lost in all the noise, is purpose and meaning. The reasons WHY these stories matter. 

He’s blaming her.

She’s blaming him.

I’m blaming her, and then…

I’m blaming me.

It’s no one’s fault and everyone’s.

And it’s easy to blame, blame, blame, so we all do it some more, even when we don’t need any more blame. We’re totally good on blame now. Quota’s filled.

We need responsibility.


The willingness to serve a thing bigger than just ourselves.

Because that’s where true peace, happiness, love and contentment lives. Or maybe just because you fucking promised. Take your pick.

Maybe we’ll get it right someday.

Maybe even me.

86 thoughts on “When Your Spouse Dies and You Miss Their Dirty Socks on the Floor”

  1. “If instead of waiting for my wife to grow and change, I proactively grew and changed”.

    Thank you. That should be written in wedding vows.

    1. I enjoy reading the article. Some parts are true and I also experience the same. I’m struggling and sometimes I feel worthless, that I’m not good enough, that I’m not good at all. I think it is impossible to change him if he himself doesn’t feel the need to change. Usually the fight would start from his “innocent” words/actions then followed by my emotional (or hyperbole, so he usually called) reactions. It is extremely difficult to control our reactions, I can only keep it all inside me then slowly slowly looking for justifications, or as my mind becomes clearer, I review the problem again more objectively and decides “Hey, it’s not a big deal. Even the problem itself is over then why I still think about it. Just move on”. And so I did.

  2. Matt, I am so touched by your words today. You could be describing the world at large…

    People fight, fight, fight, fight, and fight some more because they want ‘the other’ to admit to being wrong and acknowledge that he or she was “right.”

    And, you nailed how I see things, ‘We need responsibility. Accountability. The willingness to serve a thing bigger than just ourselves.’

    That’s what being a grown up means.

  3. Opens door, pops head in and shouts:

    You ARE well liked!!

    Not shouting anymore..

    Everyone feels like their life is “just okay”- much, if not most of the time. Things always seem to look brighter on the outside than they feel on the inside.

    Could you honestly name one thing that you would rather be doing with your life? Some purpose that wont let you go?

    Then- you’re doing just fine :).

    “Growth and change is hard. Like cooking when you don’t feel like it.

    Maybe I’ll just order a pizza” – My sentiments exactly.

    “What makes an airplane fly? The wings or the engine?

    Exactly.” – Amazing analogy.

    Peace, Bro! You are liked, you are loved, you are wanted and appreciated.

    Closes door. Footsteps walking away.

    (Don’t ask why I am including all action the words…I don’t know if I really know! ..:)

  4. It’s so funny that you wrote this because I pasted a link to one of your blog posts in reaction to that story when some high school acquantainces were oohing and ahing over it on FB.

  5. I’m trying to take a break from cyber everything. Hence the comment about foot steps walking away…I was trying to say (even if to myself) that I was just popping in, and out. Apparently I need to work on my integrity.
    I’m not sleeping, and as usual, your writing tends to linger. …I was thinking about your story, especially this part:
    ” I only know this: When the story began, everyone liked me, I wasn’t afraid of anything, and life was awesome. And now? I worry about people liking me. I’m afraid of all kinds of things. And life is just okay.”
    I think I get that. I know the fear and uncertainty that happens after a person of significance leaves.
    This may not seem like the same thing, but context- I have shared parts of my story with you, and here on the blog. My life looks a little different than yours.
    When I was 17, someone who I had considered a best friend since the 7th grade, and who I always had fun with,and who really brought a lot of life into my world- bailed. She had new friends and I wasn’t a welcomed part of it. It not only hurt that I lost a friend, it created -(or reinforced,really ) a lot of shame. I was ashamed to be me. I believed that I wasn’t cool enough, or funny enough, or “sexy” enough (she actually said this at one point) – not only for her and her new crowd, but for anyone – ever. Her removing herself from my life brought crippling (context, remember) insecurities. I really didn’t have another close friend until about 10 years later. I didn’t even like hanging out with people casually because I felt so flawed.
    I just wanted to share that with you, -share “you’re not alone” with you. It will take time, but I have confidence that you’ll learn to trust things again. Even if the fears aren’t exactly the same. It’s taken me many,many years to even trust the ground I’m walking on. There are still a few things that make me feel like it will give way – but I have gotten a lot better at understanding what is trigger those fears, and a voiding or addressing them as possible.
    Anyway – that is all.
    Best to you, as always.
    P.s.- The “shouting” from the previous comment was an excited shout-not a Jack Nicholson/Shining sort of shout..just thought I should clarify that. 🙂

  6. Hey Matt, love this.

    “However, the entry fee for a relationship is trading in your Single Person card and exchanging it for a In A Relationship one.

    And now, in a certain context, you don’t get to be yourself anymore.”

    I believe 100% in this. When in a committed relationship, life stops being just about you (not that it ever actually was). “We” HAS to become just as important as “me”. And when we can’t accept that, and instead we approach a relationship as a vehicle for fulfilling OUR needs, the relationship will ultimately fail, or suffer.

    As you said, the relationship needs to become something bigger than just the people in it.

    But when bad things happen we have a tendency to retreat into ourselves, and focus more on us and how thing affect us and make us feel. And that’s when problems really set in.

  7. completelyinthedark

    Wow, this one was outta the park, Matt. You hooked me in at “a big blur in my head that feels simultaneously lightning-fast and like an agonizing eternity.” since that’s exactly how I’ve felt since 2008 and my parents died and my last relationship ended. Like crawling through mud for eight years.

    Well, that’s getting old and stupid. Time to turn that Titanic around. Blaming and shaming and naming ain’t gonna cut it any more. Thanks for the solid reminders about readjusting mindsets for all of us, men and women. Cheers, Mike

  8. Interesting news out of the U.K. Multiple studies and surveys conclude that women who have chosen the “career” of being a housewife report the highest levels of personal happiness. “Career girls” OTOH report themselves as being much unhappier. Further, a large percentage of those women who work in the corporate world (at least 1 out of 3) report that they wish they could stay home and take care of their kids and families, but feel constrained against doing so by govt policies.

    It’s been noted for years now that women report themselves at the highest levels of unhappiness we’ve yet seen, at a time when more of them than ever are following the feminist prescription of imitating men in terms of education and career. Very sad.

    Makes one wonder what are the implications of this on rates of marriage and divorce, and on the overall level of happiness and satisfaction in marriage. A very interesting topic to be sure. But one thing is certain – we now have real, hard, solid evidence that traditional marriage arrangements (wife as homemaker, husband as breadwinner and head of household) results in the highest happiness and satisfaction levels for the wives. I’d be willing to bet this true for the husbands as well.

    Matt, keep in mind this also means (from a statistical view) that if you choose to marry a feminist-leaning, masculinized, career girl…you are going to find yourself married to someone who is unhappier than her more feminine, housewifely counterpart. And I think it’s only common sense that if SHE is unhappier, then the marriage will also be more problematic. And the husband is more likely to find himself miserable. As they say, “happy wife, happy life.”

    Just wanted to point this out, because when I advocated last year that men should marry more submissive, surrendered, feminine women…the response I got was that this was just my opinion. Well, now we see it is statistically proven fact, not just my opinion. And proven by the replies of the women themselves in these various studies and research projects!

    Interesting, no? But it makes sense. When a woman acts like a man, she is basically at war with her own God-given feminine nature and even with the natural law. So of course it results in her being unhappy and dissatisfied with her life. What else would one expect?

    Young men especially, should take careful note of this when choosing a marriage partner. Young ladies should take note of this as they develop from teens into young adults, and start making major life decisions. But are their parents filling them in on these facts?

    1. Jeff.


      Okay, I’ll play along for five seconds. Please share this unbiased, scientific, unassailable, foolproof evidence which proves beyond doubt that what you’re describing makes people happier.

      Because I buy the notion that mothers might generally be happier if they get to be super-involved in their children’s lives and never ever stress about money, or deadlines, or backstabbing co-workers, or office politics, etc.

      But I ALSO think that’s true of fathers.

      If no one ever had to worry about money and everyone could simply fill the time involving themselves in, and investing in their personal passions and interests, wouldn’t EVERYONE be happier, regardless of gender, profession, marital status, parental status, etc.?

      1. Matt, to be blunt, no.

        Men and women are different. They have different needs, wants, communication styles, emotional expressions, etc. Surely this is not news to you. This is the whole “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” thing. A husband needs to treat his wife in a way that makes her feel like a woman, not treat her as if she were a man like him. For one thing, he needs to remember that she is more sensitive than he is and that she craves love and security, just as he craves love and respect.

        As far as the evidence, I shared a direct link a couple posts down to a large study of 3,000 women. But I actually recommend the Google search I suggest below, using those specific search terms. That alone will turn up more than enough material for you. Feel free to experiment with your own searches, plenty of stuff out there.


        1. I agree. Men and women (painted with a broad-stroke brush) tend to be different, and tend to break along a few stereotypical lines.

          This is mathematically demonstrable, and I think just in life, observably true.

          Where you lose me is the agenda to have people:

          1. Agree that men should always be the head of the household, the breadwinners, and married to submissive women… and that by doing so, both men and women will collectively, across all of humanity, be happier for doing so.

          It doesn’t hold up. There are too many examples of that NOT being true that you can see and hear with your own eyes and ears within your personal life.

          2. Agree with the suggestion that careerwomen can’t find happiness.

          What makes people feel happy Jeff, are chemicals in our brains and bodies.

          People feel happy when they are physically healthy, mentally healthy, emotionally healhty, and spiritually healthy.

          When people achieve balance in their personal lives in those four areas, they are satisfied and feel happy all the time.

          Outside forces such as health, economic markets, crime, religious beliefs, war, politics, life traumas, financial stresses, injuries, children, other people’s behavior, and the behavior of people in our close personal relationships are constantly assaulting the Mind, Body, Spirit, Emotion equilibrium we require to feel peace and contentment and joy.

          I’ll close with this.

          If what makes wives happy is staying home, with or without children, why did women collectively fight for equal work and financial opportunity to ESCAPE that cultural norm they didn’t ask for in the first place?

          Let’s pretend a housewife and a career woman are neighbors.

          Is the housewife happier when her husband gets laid off?

          Is the housewife happier when her dog dies?

          Is the housewife happier when she gets a call from school and her vehicle won’t start to go pick up her child?

          Is the housewife happier when her Careerwoman friend posts her Fiji vacation photos on Facebook?

          Is the housewife happier when her Careerwoman friend mentions how fun her company Christmas/holiday party was last week?

          Is the housewife happier when her mom gets cancer? Or a storm damages the roof? Or her child gets bullied at school? Or she’s on her hands and knees scrubbing dried piss dribble and pubic hairs off the floor next to a toilet?

          Sorry, Jeff.

          It doesn’t ring true. No matter how much you want it to.

          Men and women are often different, yes.

          But not ALL men nor ALL women are the same as one another.

          Painting things as one-size-fits all is how we get all of the humanity-damaging “isms” of the world.

          Where we start ranking human beings with certain characteristics higher than other human beings with different characteristics.

          How about this:

          A Bugatti and a beachfront condo are both nice luxuries to have despite being different from one another and having totally different functions.

          Both are valuable. Both might be equally priced. Both are considered desirable by most people.

          One is a vehicle.

          One is a domecile.

          Totally different! But both really nice.

          If you try hard, you can view people just like that.

          No matter what their skin color is.

          No matter what their gender is.

          No matter what they like to do with their free time.

          No matter who they prefer to have relationships with.

          No matter what their individual talents might be.

          No matter ANYTHING.

          Human = Thing of Value


          We don’t need to rank or fix everyone who looks and acts and thinks and feels differently than us.

          But the very worst people in human history all tried. THAT’s a statistic people should pay close attention to.

          1. Matt,

            Have you thought about doing a post on WHY housewives are happier than other wives? I think this would touch on a lot of issues that are very relevant to your blog.

          2. I wouldn’t write that post.

            I would write a post about the life conditions that make housewives feel happy and fulfilled, and I would ask them about what leaves them wanting.

            I would write a second post (or include in that one) information about what makes professional women feel happy and fulfilled (it will be a different list than the housewives).

            I will also ask them what they feel is missing, and what they want. (That list will ALSO be different than the housewives.)

            And at the risk of acting like I think I know everything, I feel SUPER-confident the results would be this:

            EVERYONE has different wants, needs, experiences, skillsets, life circumstances, beliefs, etc.

            And based on their specific set, they will like and not like certain things. And they will make life choices, according to their individual needs and capabilities.

            The people who choose a life at home will long for adventure and challenge and social connection.

            The people who choose careers will long for downtime, more time with their kids, and fewer demands and stresses.

            EVERY SINGLE CHOICE WE MAKE comes with a cost.

            A tradeoff.

            There are advantages and disadvantages to home ownership. To having a car. To living on a beach, or in the mountains, or the city, or the country.

            To marriage, and to being single.

            To have children, and to not.

            There are positives, negatives, or just Stuff that’s neither good nor bad, attached to everything we ever do in life.

            To the best of our abilities, we make choices that feel best to us, given what we know.

            Inevitably, we regret not having the things we had to give up.

            If we ever change our mind to pursue those things, inevitably we regret not having the things we used to have.

            We don’t know what we got ’til it’s gone.

            The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

            It’s the human condition.

            Hedonic Adaptation.

            If you claim to not want something you don’t currently have, I won’t believe you.

            It’s true of everyone, everywhere, always.

            I’m much more interested in trying to find joy and peace in my mind and heart, so that I can help my son achieve it, and so that I can be a light in the lives of those around me.

            Along the way, maybe I can share acquired wisdom and knowledge that might accidentally help people.

            I can’t think of a good reason to encourage women who don’t want to be housewives that they should be housewives because a group of people who isn’t them, said it makes them happier.

            Just as I would never want career-driven women to shame stay-at-home moms who prefer to be present and active in the lives of their children.

            You’re suggesting that more women staying home and being submissive wives would benefit marriage and reduce instances of divorce.

            As if we can all flip a switch and get career-driven women to simply enjoy staying home even though she doesn’t enjoy staying home.

            If I meet a gay guy, or a hundred gay guys, and to a man, they all tell me that the greatest pleasure of their lives is being sandwiched between two hairy dudes in a shower, is that evidence that all men should want to do that and feel good about it?

            I think it’s best if we let people be who they are, Jeff.

            We don’t come up with one solution and tell everyone to do it that way.

            We evaluate problems and customize solutions to the specific circumstances.

            That’s how business works.

            That’s how education should work.

            And I believe, that’s how truly helping people works.

          3. Lol, all that Matt…for a simple question of why housewives are the happiest among married women?

            No one is saying anyone should be forced into a role they don’t want. I just find it very interesting that housewives are happier than other wives…and I would think you would find it very interesting as well. Being as your blog is about how to work on having happy, successful marriages.

            I submit that the reason housewives are happiest is because this is the role that is most compatible with their feminine nature. Being nuturing, loving, caregiving, and prioritizing the family. If you disagree, I’d be interested to hear why you think housewives are so happy in their lives, and working women are so miserable.

            One last thing. What most people want for their kids is happiness. That want them to be happy people. This being the case…since the research has now proven that housewives are the happiest of married women, and given that almost all women do marry…shouldn’t parents and high school guidance counselors ENCOURAGE (not “force”) teen girls to prioritize becoming housewives? I mean, don’t they want these girls to be happy in life? And since housewives are the happiest, shouldn’t they therefore encourage the girls to become housewives?

            This is a big reason why my wife and I have decided to encourage our daughters to be housewives when they grow up, and why we work on teaching them the needed skills and attitudes they will need to become successful at it. They take sewing classes, cooking classes, tennis, art/painting, and piano lessons, and their mom teaches them a lot of “Home Ec” type topics as they get older…like shopping on a budget, housecleaning, laundry, a good prayer life, etc.

            They are taught how important it is to keep themselves fit and attractive looking for their future husband, and their mom regularly takes them to the salon for beauty treatments, to help build good habits. We explain how important family is, and encourage them to marry young and have lots of children. They are taught how to value their sexuality and not to “give it away” easily to a boy they will have to enduring connection with. They are doing very well with it and we are very proud of them! We are confident they will make VERY high value wives for some lucky young men, and great mothers too…because they have been deliberately raised to this end. Anyone else doing something similar with their kids?

            Hopefully they will marry young men who were deliberately raised to be high value husbands and good fathers. And who are comfortable and confident enough to be a MAN, not a wimpy little metrosexual beta like so many young men today are, in our feminized society. For this we pray, and trust God will hear our prayers.

            Thanks for this blog Matt, it’s been a real good jumping off point for me and my wife on a lot of these marriage related topics. Wishing you the best.

          4. Housewives ARE NOT happier than other wives.

            HAPPY HOUSEWIVES are happier than other wives.

            Jeff. You are not the person I want presenting objective information to the masses.

            I crave TRUTH. Even when it’s inconvenient or uncomfortable.

            Truth, truth, and more truth.

            SOME wives are housewives and are happier about it than wives who are not housewives.

            But SOME very successful professional women are infinitely happier than miserable housewives.

            Why is this mathematical certainty something you don’t want to acknowledge?

            EVEN IF you were somehow right, and a higher number of women overall in the world were happier as housewives, what’s the point?

            64% of U.S. web searches begin on Google.

            23% of them begin on Bing.

            Are we going to unilaterally dismiss Bing as a viable search option, or not let people who prefer Bing have an option to use it since more people use Google?

            You’ve lost it, Jeff. Because your agenda is…

            Men > Women

            We live in a world where people want to tear down groups of people to prop up another.

            It’s bullshit.

            Prop up everyone.

            (P.S. Please make your New Year’s Resolution “I will NOT bring up wifely submission for no reason in MBTTTR comments.” I already lost a bunch of readers for not eliminating the toxicity back when that conversation was happening. Then everything was fine. And now you’re back at it again. I’d appreciate it very much if this was the last time.)

          5. @ Matt

            I’m coming to the discussion a bit late. I haven’t read all the comments either, so please forgive me if this data has already been presented, but I did want to post it just in case it hasn’t.

            1) A Gallup poll found that stay-at-home moms are more likely than moms who are employed outside the home to feel negative emotions such as worry, sadness, stress and anger on a daily basis, as well as to have been diagnosed with clinical depression.


            2) According to a Pew research study, stay-at-home moms are poorer than working moms. The amount of stay-at-home moms in poverty has doubled since 1970. Therefore, stay-at-home moms do stress about money.


            BTW, thanks for all your efforts on this blog Matt. I enjoy your input; it’s refreshing.

          6. Thank you for contributing to the conversation. These things matter.

            I also am staunchly opposed to the thinking “well, the majority of people benefit when X happens, so we should always do X.”


            Do X for the people who benefit from it.

            Let Y people do Y.

            And just maybe putting good ideas together to make a third option like XY can benefit even more people.

            I can’t have a conversation with people who speak in absolutes.

            Your links provide important perspective. Thank you very much.

          7. I hope they’re never suddenly thrown on the world with a couple of small kids and a husband who has left them or died. My mother raised me to be a housewife but ALSO sent me to college to get a degree because One Never Knows.

          8. Well said – we ARE all different. What is important in a relationship is to have a (some) common interest(s) and to respect what each other does to ‘bring home the bacon’. There is always give and take in any relationship – including those we develop with our children.

  9. For those wanting to see the data and the links I’m referring to, it’s easy enough to find it.

    To start with a bunch of links to these various studies, simply do a Google search. Right off the bat, I hit pay dirt by doing a search with the following words in the google search bar:

    uk study housewives happiness

    1. Matt might play along for a second but I’m trying to let it go. I must admit though Jeff, you make it hard.
      I do want to point out one small thing I can tell you from a factual standpoint of me being a stay at home(also work at home mom) that being here to take care of kids does not equal me being a submissive woman.
      As for your facts, I’m pretty sure there would be evidence supporting wives just overall being happy not being married to a dick.
      Perhaps, I should run that study.

    1. So you find a statement of facts (in this case, the results of relationship studies and research projects) to be “baiting”, lol?

      Ummm…are you familiar with George Orwell’s term “hatefacts”? You should investigate it. Also this quote from John Adams: “Facts are stubborn things.”

    2. Btw, maybe you should notify the Daily Mail newspaper that they should stop reporting on hatefacts like this. From their article of June 9, 2016:

      It is confirmation of what many weary commuters have secretly suspected.
      Research has found that stay-at-home mothers are happier than those who go out to work.

      The survey said that if staying at home with the children were counted as a job, it would rank as having happier workers than any other trade or profession.

      Only one in seven stay-at-home parents say they are dissatisified with their role, a level of unhappiness that is less than half that found among civil servants or salesmen and women.

      The survey, carried out for insurance group LV=, asked more than 3,000 to say whether or not they were satisfied with their lives. The ratings recorded are the percentage who indicated they were not unhappy with their lot.
      The report said: ‘Homemakers are happier than people working in any other occupation, but they work double the hours most people think.’

      The findings reinforce the results of large-scale research on well-being carried out by the Office for National Statistics, which has shown that stay-at-home mothers believe their lives are more worthwhile than their counterparts in work.

      Government surveys have also shown that more than a third of mothers who go out to work would like to give up their jobs and stay at home with their children.

      But women who stay at home to bring up families are under heavy pressure from the Government to find jobs and send their children into childcare.


      1. And I will get right on notifying the Daily Mail. Right after I fulfill my daily duties as a a stay at home submissive woman.

        1. Not sure what your objection is. Obviously someone put a bee in your bonnet. Do you not believe the results of the studies? Because they pretty much speak for themselves.

          What is your point? I stated that housewives are happier than other married women (which I showed to be a proven, statistical fact and NOT merely a matter of my own opinion), and that therefore it’s only common sense to conclude that they have happier marriages, all things being equal. And that this factual information is something people should probably consider when they think about marriage and family life.

          I’m not dictating that every woman must be a housewife, or that every man must marry one. Just think people have a right to know the facts – “the more you know…”, right?

          But you’re free to live your life the way you see fit. You do you. So again, I just have no idea what even bothers you about my post. Because clearly, bother you it did. If I had to guess, I’d say it’s prolly some personal baggage or issues in your own life and/or marriage…but you shouldn’t read that into my post. By doing so, you do me a disservice.

          1. Geesh, you got all of that from my comments? I’m impressed.
            As for me commenting, the question is more what is YOUR point. You are posting your views on a topic that are quite far from what I think Matt is writing about in his posts. I’m sure you can see how different your views are, right?
            There are thousands of studies on subjects such as this and I hardly think one study concludes anything.
            Jeff, I do not agree with just about everything you say. I truly do not understand why you choose to comment on this particular blog so much but it is definitely within your rights to do so. Just as it is in mine to move on from this incredibly wasteful conversation and go on with my day;)

          2. Natasha,

            My point is that certain facts are being covered up. Not by Matt, I mean in our society at large. And that’s not OK.

            If you asked your average 17 or 18 year old female high school senior to answer the question: “Repeated studies of married women show that the happiest of them are the ones in what career field?”…how many of those girls will answer correctly with “housewives” or “homemaking”? I’m willing to bet very few…and I say that is NOT by accident.

            Any of you reading this can try this experiment yourselves, if you know some teenage girls. Ask them that question. See how many get it right. Draw some conclusions.

          3. As a working mother I can tell you that I’ve had the opportunity to stay home with my children and have a career. Never submissive but I tried very hard to honor my husband. I was not honored in return in a way the was either fulfilling or nurturing. I am so thankful that I have the financial means to choose to stay or leave. Being married to someone who thinks like Jeff would make me so thankful I had the financial means to get the hell out of dodge.

            Depending on the daily circumstance, I am happy working outside the home or inside with my children. It isn’t either or. It is both. “Even sunshine hurts if you get too much”.

          4. KJCJ,

            You do you. But that’s irrelevant to the fact that it is statistically proven that housewives are happier than other married women. Just like it remains true that it’s a statistical fact that college grads have greater success in life an high school dropouts, even if I can find an example of the reverse.

            The questions is, given that we know for a fact that housewives are happier wives…what conclusions should we draw from this? What behaviors are appropriate, given this knowledge. This is the discussion I am raising.

            It seems to me that a man can improve his odds (but it’s not guaranteed, I agree) of having a happy wife if he marries a housewife.

            Just like a person can improve his odds (but it’s not guaranteed) of professional success by graduating college.

            Or an obese woman can improve her odds of success in her dating/romantic life (but it’s not guaranteed) by getting into shape.

            In all these cases, the individual is playing the odds, based on facts, even though there can never be a guarantee. But they can have good expectations of success, based on the readily available facts that college grads do better professionally, in-shape women are considered more attractive to the opposite sex, and housewives are happier than wives who are not housewives.

            I really don’t see how I can make this any simpler for you. If you can’t grasp this, the way I laid it out, then you can’t grasp basic principles of logic…or even common sense.

          5. Jeff

            Pretty well all married women are housewives. It is just that some of us must also go out to work.

            If you want to check stats maybe you could look up what percentage of house work is done by women compared to men in married situations.

            Anyone who knows anything about statistics knows that they are easy to manipulate. So you can prove whatever you like using stats but that does not make them fact.

            Most people are happier when they only have to work one job.

  10. As always you provide a wonderful perspective. Love the airplane analogy. Guilt and blame are highly unproductive. Taking ownership of our own stuff and responsibility for our actions is the path to real happiness.

  11. “It seems to me that a man can improve his odds (but it’s not guaranteed, I agree) of having a happy wife if he marries a housewife.”

    Well, I guess my ex screwed the pooch because he didn’t want me to just be a housewife. He expected me to work, bring home the bacon & cook it, too. His reasoning was that in this day & age it takes both the husband and the wife to make ends meet. In hindsight, what he really meant was that HE wanted to work just enough to pay the bills & be comfortable, but still have his downtime to play, hang out with friends, get drunk & screw around. I was expected to pick up the slack. I guaran-damn-tee you that had we had to rely on just his income alone, he wouldn’t have had the boats, Harleys, guns, dirtbikes, four-wheelers, TOYS etc. that he just thought he couldn’t live without.

    My work outside the home not only brought in income, but provided benefits such as health insurance, etc. Before our children were old enough to go to school, I was working for benefits & paying someone else to watch them because he wanted me to have a J. O. B. And at the end of the day, while he was out playing & getting his downtime, I was picking up the kids from daycare, preparing dinner, doing laundry, washing dishes, bathing kids, getting them ready for bed, etc.

    God forbid he step up and help with the kids & the household in the evenings after we BOTH got home from our full-time jobs. Doing that might actually have made me happy in feeling that I was part of a partnership for the good of our family. God forbid he sit down with me and help me with bills and finances. And God forbid that he actually might consider being the sole breadwinner so that I could make being a housewife a full-time job…then he’d have had a happy wife at home.

    Although I would have liked to have been a stay-at-home wife & mother and take care of my family in a more nurturing rather than financial aspect, I’m glad that wasn’t in the cards for me. I can’t imagine trying to go out into the workforce after not being employed for 21 years and now face being a single mom. I have a wonderful job that I am able to provide for our daughter who still has two years left at home with me. The child support I now receive is just gravy in addition to what I make…THANK GOD.

    I don’t think he was ever committed to our relationship. It was always about him, and that’s where I blame myself. I should have chosen a better partner. Period.

    1. Starting over,

      Thanks for sharing, you bring up some valid points. It’s important to raise young men to be ambitious enough to provide for a family. And a young lady should prioritize these characteristics in a potential mate. Unfortunately, I don’t think a lot of young ladies have that kind of maturity….and may focus on more superficial traits. Education, esp from the parents, is key here.

      Not to get too personal, but since you volunteered to talk about your situation, may I ask if you knew to prioritize such traits when you were a young lady seeking a mate? Did set a high priority regarding ambition, drive, work ethic, work history, and education on guys you were seriously dating? If not, I’m not criticizing you…I’m just curious. I’m always trying to learn.

      Of course, the flip side is that such good, high value husbands are in high demand. So a young lady should focus on raising her value in the marriage market, so she can land one of these guys. Of course everyone is different, but in general I think good qualities for such a young lady include being caring, nuturing, feminine, loving, sweet, soft-spoken, supportive, and respectful of her mate. Also good are being forgiving, slow to anger, understanding, etc.

      She should avoid being sarcastic, critical, loud, or nagging. She should make clear she prioritizes family, will respect her husband as the head of the household, will devote herself to properly running the household and raising the kids properly, is happy to live within their means, and will happily perform her “wifely duties” as often as her husband desires (and she has nothing but disdain for women who use sex as a weapon, withholding it from their husbands in order to punish them). Love and compassion should be the cords that bind her and her husband together.

      I submit that a young lady with these qualities will have a marriage market value near the top of the scale, even if only slightly above average in looks. I would advise any good and decent young man who was seriously dating such a girl to go ahead and marry her.

  12. Matt said “Housewives ARE NOT happier than other wives.”

    (I’m posting here because the formatting was getting too narrow above).

    Matt, you’re entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. The studies show clearly that when researchers ask married women to report their levels of happiness, and they break down the women’s answers into categories by career, those wives in the category “housewife” report that they are happier than the rest. This is just a fact.

    So, yes, we can quite clearly say that housewives are happier than other married women. We say it in the same sense we say that college grads will be more successful professionally than high school dropouts – obviously not true for everyone and there are no guarantees, but in the main as a general statement and BASED ON EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE AND RESEARCH, it’s a fact.

    So that housewives are happier is not in dispute. The interesting question is WHY are they happier? I gave my take on that question. And I would add to my prior answer that the housewives also probably feel more taken care of and provided for.

    If you want to speculate on the WHY, I’d be most interested in hearing your thoughts. But if you want to question the fact itself, you would need to contest all these studies that have been done. And I don’t think you’ll have any luck there – these studies are carried out by professional researchers and pollsters, and they polled many thousands of women.

  13. Not to beat a dead horse here, but just to add one more thing.

    Matt, your reply to me above where you criticized me would have been valid if I said “Only housewives are happy” or “No working wife is ever happy” or even “Every wife should be a housewife.” In truth, I said none of those things…and you’re a smart enough guy to know that.

    I simply said that since studies and research projects have shown that housewives are the happiest category of married women (which is a fact), I would be interested in hearing your thoughts (or the thoughts of others in the comment section) as to WHY this is the case. This being a blog about marriage, divorce, and marriage improvement and all….it seemed like an apt topic.

    But you apparently do not want to accept what the studies have proven. You don’t want it to be true that housewives are happier, for reasons of your own. But I can’t help you there, the truth remains whether one agrees with it or not. Facts are stubborn things.

    If men are seeking to improve their existing marriage (or if single, looking to find a wife for a healthy marriage), don’t you think it may be relevant for them to know that housewives are the happiest category of wives, as proven by multiple studies on the question? You wouldn’t want them ignorant as to this truth, would you?

    P.S. I haven’t been talking about “wifely submission”. I referred to the results of studies of married women’s happiness levels, and offered up a discussion on the matter. Nothing wrong with that…is there?

  14. “I’m simply NOT blaming myself or men for failed marriages. Never have; never will.”

    I think I’m going to go there. Matt. I really am, I’m going to blame men for failed marriages. That probably sounds harsh, but the reverse means we can then blame them for successful marriages too. Which means men now have the power to build healthy relationships for themselves.

    It’s okay to fail. If you fail, fail faster, it’s the only path to success. I’m not speaking of condemnation, I’m just saying the vast majority of failed marriages can probably be laid at the foot of men.

    I don’t want to stir the pot up too much, but women by design, submit to grace. Not trying to be sexist here, but we just do. When confronted by a man who shows us grace, we just submit. I have never met a single woman who said, “my husband showed me grace, mercy, kindness, so I decided to up divorce him.”

    Grace is a tricky one to define, it’s related to unmerited favor and also “…giving honor unto your wife ….being heirs together in the grace of life.” Very biblical I know, but really that simple too. Those words say it all.

    1. “I’m just saying the vast majority of failed marriages can probably be laid at the foot of men”

      I agree with you, in the majority of cases it’s the men’s fault for attempting to wife up a gal who is totally unsuitable wife material! Modern, feminist-approved Marriage 2.0 is a bad deal and sucker’s bet for men….the only way to win is not to play. Instead, “hit it and quit it”. Expect to hear more about men going on a marriage strike in the future.


      1. I could care less whether men go on a marriage strike or not. The men who blame women, culture, feminism for their own epic failures to take responsibility for themselves, aren’t marriage material anyway.

        1. Btw, IB…I found a guy online who described his experience with the marriag strike in an interesting, kind of funny anecdote. For what it’s worth:

          As a forties-ish man in Washington DC years back, dating mid-thirties-ish women, I and my fellows in this condition saw in women consistent patterns. They were either divorced and back on the market, sometimes with children, or they were career women not yet married—and both were desperate to be so. Those who had chosen career over marriage were finding that work was not empowering as promised, but just work. They, like the divorced, knew that their looks were fading, that they were becoming—old women. They wanted husbands. Now.

          The hunting was poor. When they looked around, they saw that the good men were taken. Those remaining were homosexuals, or three-time losers looking for a fourth divorce, or confirmed bachelors, or hopeless dweebs. For the career women, that damned biological clock was ticking like Peter Pan’s alligator.

          This made it a guy’s market. If you were a man of forty-five, employed, not actually a serial killer, and had fewer than five nostrils, you did well. The women, though desperate, were often attractive, smart, good-looking, warm-blooded, and great people. They were catches, certainly all that I dated, but we were not looking. I had been burned in a divorce—my wife wasn’t bad at all, but the marriage was—and I was perfectly happy seeing a girlfriend on weekends and maybe Wednesdays. I had nothing to gain by marriage. None of us did. And feminists had made marriage dangerous.

          This led to a common progression from the woman:

          “Oh, I don’t want to get married. I just want to enjoy life.”

          “I don’t want to get married, but I can understand why my friends do.”

          “I don’t want to get married now, but maybe sometime.”

          “Is this goddamed relationship going anywhere, or what?”

        2. And here is the same guy’s advice to YOUNG men concerning marriage. It can be summed up in one word: DON’T. Some young men are listening. More will do so in the future. Things get interester. Barring a return to Marriage 1.0 (which I see no sign of) the number of men launching the marriage strike will only grow.

          Anyway, without further ado, his advice to a young man in love:

          If you are a young man, and contemplate matrimony with the love of your life, it is well to look at marriage from the standpoint of reason rather than sentiment. Men are, after all, male, and occasionally capable of reason. The first question to ask yourself is: Why marry? What would you gain? Would your troubles disappear? Would sex be better? Would food be more savory? Would you get tax breaks, enjoy more freedom? Do stock options come with marriage?

          Is there any practical advantage at all?

          For you, I mean. For her, the advantages are considerable, and the drawbacks few. Your salary will allow her an upscale house, something more important to her than to you, which on the odds she will get in the divorce. Marriage locks-in child support. Since men die younger, she will get to pick your bones. For her, it is a good deal.

          For you, no. Marriage has one purpose only, which is to get her legal hooks into you. Do not forget that American women, under the evanescent ivory skin, are eternally adolescent spoiled brats, feminine as a wrestler’s jockstrap and primed, as soon as life’s inevitable shocks come, to blame men for their unhappinesses. That means you.

          Do not dismiss the foregoing as clever cynicism. Nobody goes into marriage expecting divorce, but it comes very frequently, and she really does get the house and the children. In divorces, men lose. Your child support will be based on what the judge thinks you should earn—this is called “imputed income”—so that, if you are a stock broker, you cannot decide that you would rather work on a fishing boat in the Caribbean. If the judge thinks you may be a flight risk, she can confiscate your passport. Your wife’s lawyer may advise her to accuse you of sexually molesting the children. (So help me, this happens. In a divorce, the man wants to get out, the wife to get even.) You may be denied visitation.

          In the eyes of the court, the children are her property, to be done with as she chooses. She may remarry with an Air Force colonel she met in a meat bar, and be stationed in Okinawa. So much for your kids.

          She can ruin you at any moment. Can and, not unlikely, will. When the moment comes, you will be astonished at how much she knows about divorce law, how vicious she can be. In marriage, you are betting your future on the flip of a loaded coin.

          The sensible conclusion is that you are better off single, building a career or whatever you want in life, and dating such flowers as drift by.

      2. No problem IB, we will agree to disagree. I think many (sadly, maybe even the majority) of the young ladies in this culture today are not wife material. You can think otherwise, but you won’t convince me.

        1. “I think many (sadly, maybe even the majority) of the young ladies in this culture today are not wife material.”

          Step one. Don’t ever marry someone who declares the majority of women are not wife material! LOL, conversely however,don’t marry someone who believes the majority of women are probably good wife material.

          Actually, just avoid all people who refer to actual human beings as “material.”

          Hubby and I went into marriage with no expectations at all and I think that’s really key. Today people are far more entitled, men and women,and they act as if they are acquiring an asset, an accessory.

        2. IB,

          The problem for a lot of men is that they give in to their “white knight” tendencies, and attempt to wife up a girl who’s broken on the inside and totally unsuitable as a mate. In their minds, the men are going to “save” her and everything will work out great. As you can imagine, this usually ends in disaster.

          In my younger days, I almost fell prey to this myself. I was gonna marry a gal with serious issues. I came to my senses, and bailed. She was devasted, but I held firm. Fifteen years later, she tracked me down and called me out of the blue. Apparently she had found some sucker to marry her. Naturally, she explained how they were getting divorced, she had put him in jail several times and ruined his life, even though by her own admission he was a good guy who worked hard and had married her in part to get her health benefits when she was sick, etc.

          And all I could think is…that could have been me. That WOULD have been me!

          Something similar happened to a close buddy, except he went ahead with the marriage. The better part of 2 decades of misery, constant nagging and bickering, and denial of sex later, he finally ended it. He stayed as long as he did for his kinds, and even then he wasn’t only able to stick it out by having constant affairs on the side.

          He later told me how when they were dating, she disclosed she had been abused severely by her ex boyfriend, she had had an abortion, etc. In short, she had major red flags and issues in her background…she was “broken”. And my buddy, who was a great catch and could have had any chick, gave in to his inner white knight and married her so he could save her. He says that was the biggest mistake he ever made.

          So here are just two examples of failed marriages, where I would say it wasn’t the man’s fault…because he tried to wife up a woman who was totally unsuitable as a mate. Fortunately, nowadays guys are wishin

          1. “The problem for a lot of men is that they give in to their “white knight” tendencies, and attempt to wife up a girl who’s broken on the inside and totally unsuitable as a mate. In their minds, the men are going to “save” her and everything will work out great. As you can imagine, this usually ends in disaster.”

            Welcome to the world of women chasing bad boys! Women are absolutely notorious for chasing unworthy men,white knighting them so to speak. We’re always going to save them, heal them, fix them. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but women actually get ourselves killed trying to do this.

            I stand by my point, however. I’m going to place the fault with men, because,biology, faith, and the nature power. Men are called to lead, men are called to take charge of their lives. If we’re going to say marriage is not the fault or responsibility of men, then we’re placing him in a victim role, one where he is completely powerless. So while it may sound harsh, I think the reverse also becomes true, we can credit men with the success of our marriages.

          2. IB,

            We don’t disagree. I too, blame men for most unsuccessful marriages. This is a result of their marrying women who are unsuitable wife material.

            No one forced the men to marry these women, so they did it by their choice. So yes, it is their fault. Just as it would have been my fault – the disaster that would have ensued – if I hadn’t bailed on the gal I came close to marrying back in the day.

            It’s a matter of education. And I think strides are being made here. More will come.

          3. I appreciate you so much, IB. I had a letter in the mail yesterday from one of those broken men trying to reconcile with me, (not the cheating abusing soon-to-be-ex, different kind of situation altogether) showing his complete lack of understanding of anything. I don’t hold a grudge. I don’t hate him, as the letter casually dropped that he thinks I do and wants to find a way past, I have no idea how to communicate with so much of the opposite of reality. What can you say to that kind of stubborn, prideful man that has lived in denial of his sins till now he’s in his 70s and has this many years of embracing delusions and lies? I know there are a few godly men in the world. And truthfully I know he’s not one of em. I just want to be allowed to know if he’s OK or not. I don’t know how to pursue any more than that since I can’t embrace his delusions and have a clue how to navigate any of the convoluted conversations that would be likely to follow. *sigh* it’s too bad he’s too broken to have a clue what respect really means. He always had plenty of it way back when, as emotional-sounding-words-that-are actually-about-actions go. He’s still got a surprising amount as far as my opinions and feelings go for such a broken guy. He just can’t have the thing he wants, the life where everyone bows down to his point of view and understands it and reflects it back to him, no matter how far it is from the truth. I love and respect God more than him. And I have no desire to destroy my grip on truth, reality, love, and God just to play mind games that can never go well anyway. No clue how I’m going to manage to craft an answer to that letter.

        3. Sorry, had some technical glitches on that last post.

          Obviously, the couple times the word “wasn’t” appeared, it should have said “was”. Darn autocorrect.

          And the last line is that nowadays guys are starting to wise up. Slowly so far, but it’s gotten to the point that “white knight” is now a derogatory term you’re hearing more and more. This shows awareness, and will prolly save some guys from this self-destructive tendency. Bottom line: if she’s broken on the inside, don’t try to fix her or save her. Just run! That’s what I did, and by doing so I prevented my life from being ruined.

          One final point. My buddy I mentioned above is on the dating market as a divorcee. Now in his forties, he’s still a good catch and has no problem attracting women. But I almost feel sorry for the gals – having been through the wringer, he is so mercenary now when it comes to relationships, you wouldn’t believe it! He knows how to tell the gals what they want to hear, push their attraction buttons, get what he wants from them, and then move on. He tells me it’s too risky with our current laws for a man to marry, so he will never marry again, but he lets the girls he dates THINK he’s open to remarriage. He plays these gals like a fiddle, and will often be working several of them at once (I call this “plate spinning”)

          My point is not to judge him. He has the right to date whoever and however he wants. But there’s a lesson here. Sometimes girls are told to focus on career, or travel and adventure, and marry later. Like well into their 30’s. Sometimes it’s mentioned they are gambling with their biological clock by doing so, and that’s correct. But there’s another point you don’t often hear.

          You see, a girl in her 30’s, dating a guy 3 to 5 years older like gals tend to do, is going to be dealing with guys in their late 30s and even early 40s. Many of these men will be divorced. They will have been put through the wringer, like my buddy. And like him, they are apt to have grown cynical, cautious, mercenary, maybe even bitter. And this is the raw material these late-marrying girls will have to work with, when it comes to choosing a husband!

          How different for them if they were in their early 20s, seeking a husband around the mid 20s age group…so many of whom are still full of innocence, hope, romanticism, idealism, etc!

          So you see, there are many reasons we will be encouraging our daughters to marry young! My wife would like them to be teen brides, but I think early 20s is ideal for a girl (and mid to late 20s, when he’s starting to get established in a career, is ideal for a man)

          1. “My buddy I mentioned above is on the dating market as a divorcee. Now in his forties, he’s still a good catch and has no problem attracting women. But I almost feel sorry for the gals – having been through the wringer, he is so mercenary now when it comes to relationships, you wouldn’t believe it! He knows how to tell the gals what they want to hear, push their attraction buttons, get what he wants from them, and then move on. He tells me it’s too risky with our current laws for a man to marry, so he will never marry again, but he lets the girls he dates THINK he’s open to remarriage. He plays these gals like a fiddle, and will often be working several of them at once (I call this “plate spinning”)

            My point is not to judge him. He has the right to date whoever and however he wants…”

            Good grief, Jeff. That’s some massively hypocritical hogwash. Your buddy couldn’t and wouldn’t lead a woman as a godly husband if you held a gun to his head. You’ve spouted and spouted about women being no good, being broken and damaged, being dangerous to men, probably worthless to begin with and declining in value, but you’ve got no judgements against your sexually immoral, pig of a man friend out there using and breaking them… … seriously?

            Why should men be broken sinners, users and abusers and get a pass? I’m praying for all the young women I know to be able to avoid men like your friend and like you who see women as worthy of being used and men as justified in using them as nothing more than objects to gratify men.

            I did choose to be a homemaker and a homeschool mom. You claim guys should be looking for that or some specific variation maybe. But you also claim that women are mostly valued for their inherent inborn hotness, their ability to get ranked by Jeff as having sexual market value. I was attractive,…I had plenty of dates in my teen years and even more invites. I had to fight guys off sometimes and even had situation S in life where I wasn’t so successful as I wish I’d been in fighting them off. I was recruited into the Miss Georgia Teen pageant even though I had no pageant background and as it turned out not enough stamina or interest in the whole crazy show to keep smiling for three days straight, once weathered an attempt to recruit me into modeling which my parents did NOT want me to do, once went to the theatre in the West End of London to see the original production of Cats “in the round” and after the performance met one of the actors outside the theatre who recognized me from when he’d been on stage and knew exactly what seat I’d been sitting in and wanted to take me out to the pub. My godly mother hustled me away and didn’t let my 17 year old self go out for a pint with him, of course. I grew up with a strict father who got all the credit in the world as a pillar of his community, elder in the church, had his family all in order and as seemly as seemly can be …right up until his temper and pride finally got the better of him. I did devote myself to the life of stay at home wife and mom and to this day I describe that to others as having been blessed to have been able to do so for as long as I did. And you know what fulfilling that role with a regular guy like you champion in your friend and describe as a catch gets you? Or with a man who calls himself a Christian but is actually hiding significant sins within his heart? Or openly showing them as you so boldly proclaim the worthlessness of women in general and the rightness of sexually immoral men? It gets you heartache piled on top of heartache piled on top of heartache. Being that guy’s daughter? Same thing. There is absolutely no justification that God is going to accept on that final day for men calling themselves Christians and bringing such shame on the cross with their hypocrisy, and pride and abuse of others.

            And you know what else? I’m also a broken and damaged person in need of salvation, in need of patience and forgiveness, in need of leadership and mercy. I could never be perfect in a relationship. I’d always require grace just as much or more than every other human being on the planet. There are no perfect people who you get to find and then have a perfect life with just because you were so smart you found that sinless person. I’m thankful for the sacrifice of Christ and HIS view of human value! And if I ever meet a godly man whose actually available he definitely won’t spout constant hate for all women or fear of how bad it will go for him when he divorces (because who wants to marry a person whose already planning that it’s not a genuine commitment?!) or fear of women being too man-like or any of the nasty delusional stuff all your divorced friends get you believing was totally outside of themselves when they failed at marriage or whatever parts of your hate of women just comes from your own pet views. People either heal after divorce or they don’t. If they aren’t learning and healing they’ll never be ready to be good in a new relationship. If nothing else they have to heal from the damage done to them when someone else left them. And most folks even if they’ve been severely wronged in that part still have their own faults in the marriage to deal with in their minds.

            Youth is beauty. And beauty if vanity. But growing older has a lot of advantage over the emptiness of physical beauty. Being used and abused by men and learning to lean on God alone also leads you to eventually be glad to not be thought of as attractive by the pigs. It’s better to be alone than to be with a man who believes in the power and the right of men to use and abuse women. You and your good-catch-user friend can both just go jump in a lake. No woman with any sense of what’s good and righteous wants anything to do with all that evil. it’s up to women to choose what’s right or not for themselves. But guess what the same is true of men! your friend is fatally flawed as much or more than any woman you’ve been railing against ever was.

          2. FSM- Yay-men. (That was me being punny…say it out loud :).
            Reading over this thread, it really has my mind pulling at the strings of how marriage is viewed overall.

            The thought of a marriage strike is funny (not to be condescending to anyone), and really, if ever became a thing, could kind of backfire from its original intentions.

            Basically, it sounds like men are holding marriage as leverage over women to get what they want.
            They are looking at marriage as something that is sought after by women. ..And it is. Or the idea of it is. The idea of a strong leader and protector. There is also the idea of being loved, treated well and honored. We want the same kind of love we received from our parents. We want a lifetime of security and protection.

            There are men out there that strive and do live this out in their marriages. But, yeah- you’re right. We aren’t losing much if the ones who go “on strike” are using it in such a dishonorable way. Those aren’t the men we would want anyway!

            But, more than that…what if women didn’t value marriage so much? What if the strike ensued and marriage dwindles? Would women become more focused on growing individually and being whole, and looking at their life and future as something more broad? What if we were ok to wait, or to be single?

            In all honesty, think a marriage strike would advance the perceived “feminist agenda”.

            I say this and I want to note that while I don’t believe I have a particular agenda for the dominance of one gender over another, I do see that I have feminist leanings.

            I don’t feel like that is because of any particular world view that was taught, but just because of my experiences. …
            I am a woman. I was a fat, neglected and socially anxious kid who became a socially anxious adult.
            No, I didn’t date much. Like you- I am considered attractive, but I had a million and one pits of doom and despair that separated me from being close to anyone.

            I have had to function as a single woman out in the world, and so, yes- I tend to want to stress the importance of women finding value in themselves.

            I still think marriage and family is one of the most important things in our society. Family units have helped human beings develop the brains we currently have. It is so, so important and vital.

            I just wonder if the story needs to change. What if it were a partnership story as opposed to a rescue story?

            I don’t want what I say here to upset anyone’s sensibilities,
            I am really just thinking out loud…

            Are we sacrificing family for becoming a whole human being?
            Can we have both? Don’t we need both to be healthy?…

            Whatever the case, it seems like our current expectations and involvement in marriage isn’t working.
            If marriage is to create a sound foundation for a family unit, but the outcome of divorce happens so often, then its not really serving its purpose as is.

            Maybe our understanding and expectations of marriage needs to change, so we know what we are really getting ourselves into.

            Just some thoughts. Thanks for listening to me ramble a bit. Do you have any thoughts on it?

          3. Basically, I think most of what goes on is self-centeredness, competition, etc etc. I don’t think that’s exclusive to heterosexual relationship. I think it’s human foibles. I don’t even agree that a husband and wife really really needing each other (or being that badly effected by being mistreated or being left or cheated on) is unhealthy. I think the closest people come to “healthy” still includes that there’s always give and take, faults and needs for forgiveness, growth and improvement. I really do fall back on Biblical standards and continually find myself reconfirmed in their rightness. Men seeking to make men superior and hurting women and demeaning them is all about men not loving God’s statutes enough to get over themselves and follow what God says to men about how to treat their wives throughout the New Testament. Women seeking to make women superior and run men down is pretty much the same. Us adult men and women end up acting like little kids whose parents keep telling them as God keeps telling us…maybe done eventually learn to listen and trust that He knows what he’s about with his rules better than we ever know anything for ourselves. So that’s why I’m not going to explore women. Much as I don’t relish the idea of being alone, far from it. If I’m alone I can learn to be Ok and be me and serve God alone. It’s better than being abused. And it’s better than yet again failing to trust God till the pain hits later, whether again in this life or later. I’ll keep working on healing, growing, and improving. It is well with my soul.

          4. Hey. Thanks for replying. I want to clarify some things, so I copy and pasted.

            But, also- 45 min into writing all this drivel though and I thought: I don’t think it is offensive, I also don’t know how helpful it is either.
            So below are a few points and opinions that may be different than yours.
            They are things I really believe and that I really feel like God is in conversation with me about.
            I don’t want them to be offensive because they are different.
            I realize we have different points of view on things, I just want you to know that as I am expressing mine it is never meant to be contentious.
            If it feels that way, will you let me know?

            If you want to read it and have a conversation about it, I would be all for that.
            If not, I understand and that is ok, too.

            My greatest focus should be on being helpful, not clarifying my point of view. ..
            There go those human foibles.. 🙂

            I totally agree with your statement that “Basically, I think most of what goes on is self-centeredness, competition, etc etc. I don’t think that’s exclusive to heterosexual relationship. I think it’s human foibles.”

            “I don’t even agree that a husband and wife really really needing each other (or being that badly effected by being mistreated or being left or cheated on) is unhealthy.”
            …I want to clarify that I definitely believe people need people. I really, really need other people- because I am a human being and I do believe God made us for community. I think most of us also really do benefit from being in union with a spouse. .. & I think there are a lot of complementary differences between man and women. But, I think its those human foibles as mentioned before that really do trip us up in the reality of those relationships.

            You mentioned that you weren’t interested in exploring women…I hope I didn’t come across as suggesting that. …I really wasn’t. And, I understand about sticking by what seems pretty explicit in the bible about homosexuality. Believe me, I try not to be flippant about God. (Although I know I use his name in vain at times…)
            Even when I was first saved, and overflowing with gratitude and very eager to learn all there was to learn about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity, I wrote a letter to a local gay congregation (pretty progressive for a small Texas town, I know). I really felt in my heart that they were not specially designated to go to hell for living out fully who they were made to be, for having a partner and a family. I didn’t mail the letter, I just put it in my glove box.
            I followed what was taught in my church, and since I wasn’t gay, it didn’t really effect me so I just didn’t think about it very much. There is a lot of controversy locally, and I am sure more broadly as well over this. I don’t judge anyone either way about what they believe or where they land on the issue. I personally believe the scripture is read out of context in some parts.. and overall- I feel like the fact that we still struggle with the issue misses the heart of God and the whole point of Jesus.
            In all honesty I don’t know if I am interested in exploring women, either- but I am allowing myself the possibility of it.
            The result was seeing things in a different perspective. That is what I wanted to get across. So, I hope we can put that aside to address what I think is a greater issue for everyone.

            There are a few other things that really, really have been on my mind- and if I were any good at writing, if I had the ability to word things with clarity and precision like some people I know of, I would write a blog post about it.

            You mentioned human foibles, and you also state “I think the closest people come to “healthy” still includes that there’s always give and take, faults and needs for forgiveness, growth and improvement.”

            I don’t ever think we will be sin free while in this body. I believe we will hurt others even if unintentional, we will do the wrong thing, ect. ect. But, I also don’t think the act of salvation was a one time deal and now we our safe from Hell but continue to live our lives in a state of continued brokenness.

            I think part of working out our own salvation is exactly the taking responsibility for our brokenness, and doing the work to help it heal. Not to attain perfection, of course, but to attain health. Health is described as an equilibrium,.. and not only the lack of disease but elements that promote the full human capacity.
            So God’s work, Jesus’ work is more than just about not being broken, it is being actively alive and living out of your full human capacity.

            I believe that we have taken the understanding about God’s sovereignty and translated it into us being passive participants in his work. We aren’t, we aren’t , we aren’t. We tend, or at least I tended, to believe that God will do, and my job is to sit and listen and wait.
            We read about Saul and him moving ahead of God and Samuel, so we refuse to make a move without his explicit permission and direction.
            We are told that we are sinners and cant trust ourselves…
            but, yes and no.
            How about this- I trust that God has given me power and freedom and the capacity to judge right from wrong.
            Is it complete- no. I have limited power, and limited freedom and limited capacity to know (and therefore make good judgement). …But I am also given forgiveness and grace from him so that if I make a mistake, it doesn’t equal great calamity (that is always the fear) , it equals another chance to do something different.

            He wants us to live. He wants us to explore (it doesn’t have to be women ; ) ) He wants us to grow and become. He wants us to realize the person that he created us to be. For His Glory.

            What does this have to do with marriage?

            Just that if we as humans were less focused on relationships as a way to get our personal desires met…if we focused more on being whole and complete human beings, we could have better relationships and better marriages because we would be stronger, and sounder and have it in us to give to the unit.

            …I believe God will take care of you in your singleness. It may be a great big gift you didn’t even know you wanted. I’ve been doing it for a while now…it gets easier.
            I hope somethings I said here were affirming to you, and maybe helpful.

            Like I noted before, if it feels more contentious, will you let me know?


  15. As a ‘misandrist’, I actually enjoyed this article. I am sorry about your divorce, but I am glad that you are writing about it. I really liked the way you portrayed husband, wife and marriage. The airplane with engine and wings was a very neat example.
    Your post actually makes a lot of sense. And I actually feel speechless so…
    Best of luck for everything in life.

  16. Some of you may not appreciate this because of moral/religious values (some of which I share), some of you may not appreciate this because of well, me- and my pattern of behavior(sorry) , but I really thought this was a worthwhile point of view that could be appreciated in the overall conversation.

    So, I am exploring the possibility of dating women. I am on a LGTBQ social app that is fairly casual, and more social than dating focused- yet…
    For the first time, I am viewing things from how a guy may view their interactions with women.

    Women seem to have a lot of expectations for their partner (of whatever sex) to fulfill their emotional needs. There are meme’s and quotes that don’t say it explicitly, but can be interpreted as “I’ve been hurt, I am stronger for it, but you better not hurt me, too.”

    I don’t want to downplay anyone’s experiences with emotional trauma, or upheaval. It can all be pretty devastating. I know it takes a lot to endure the pain, and tons more to climb your way out of it. I’m not underestimating or undervaluing the depth and impact of pain inflicted in relationships.

    But, as I read things women post on there, it terrifies me (and kind of, is a taste of my own medicine). I am not qualified to take care of anyone’s emotional needs to that extent. (Maybe a child’s, if I were a parent. But even then- my responsibility would be to teach them to own and regulate their emotions.)

    That just makes me think about this in the context of any/all relationships.

    I’m not saying we shouldn’t be interested in, and attuned to our partners, friends, families emotional being- We absolutely should .

    But, there seems to be a lot of giving over of responsibility to others for our own emotional well being.

    We (all of us- men and women) have to own our emotions; we are responsible for loving and approving of ourselves, we are responsible for making the most of our lives and finding what fills our souls/our calling. We are responsible for changing our behavior to become more aligned to those things we approve, and the things that we want.

    Then, (and only then, I am becoming convinced) can we be functional partners in a real, mutual relationship.

    The relationship would not be based on gender roles, or emotional needs, or social expectations and time tables. It would be based on two individuals having an authentic mutual relationship.

    We have to take responsibility for these things to maintain self and mutual respect for one another in a marriage. We have to take responsibility for these things to know and uphold boundaries before marriage. We have to take responsibility for these things to just live a good life whether married or not; we need them for every good and healthy relationship.

    Basically, what I think I am trying to say is we cant look to our partners or marriage as a way to make us happy or complete. We have to look at ourselves, first. We have to be happy and complete in order to be a good partner and give to the marriage.

    1. Hear hear Lindsey!

      I’m sure some people get “lucky” and their dysfunctions match in such a way that they don’t make eachother crazy or quietly desperate, but in general, I do think it’s very very hard to have a long term relationship (especially when there’s lots of shared stuff, responsibilites, property, children, living space etc).

      Of course as humans we do have needs and desires and I think it was RuralBethany who said that she would need her partner to not contribute to her unhappiness (or something like that). Maybe that’s what *some* of the folks are referring to, when they talk about needing their next partner to not hurt them? I try to think of healthy needs vs unhealthy needs, like with food (I know I’ve said this before, sorry if I’m boring you or others). People need food to nourish themselves, that’s healthy, but if you need 5 cupcakes and gallons of coffee to get through the day, and 30 minutes after your last meal you get hungry again, that’s not healthy and should be dealt with. Similarly, we need conversation and affection and bonding, but if we can’t surive without one person, or if we can’t deal with someone not being available every time we want them too, that’s not healthy either. In my book.

      I personally aspire to want to be with someone and love them very much, but also to know deeply that I’d be fine on my own too. 🙂

      Hugs to you, girl!

      1. Donkey,
        Hey friend! I’m not saying that we shouldnt have emotional needs, or that we shouldnt be attuned to and caring of each other’s emotional needs. Id want someone to be aware of, interested in and a part of my emotional/mentally/ spiritual life. I really feel like that is the tie that gives life to the relationship. But that doesn’t mean they would be responsible for it.
        In fact, not being actively responsible for your own kind of reduces the life of the relationship.

    2. Linds: “Basically, what I think I am trying to say is we cant look to our partners or marriage as a way to make us happy or complete.”

      I totally agree. In fact, before I married my wife one of the things I told her was “Don’t expect me to make you happy. That’s not my job as your husband”.

      All these years later, she still tells me that’s one of the best pieces of advice she ever got. She tells it to her girlfriends all the time, but a lot of them don’t get it. They DO expect their hubbies to make them happy, and they often end up miserable. Yet my wife, taking my advice to heart, never expected her hubby to make her happy…and she is very happy in her life and her marriage.

      I think all young people going into marriage should be given this advice, esp. the females.

  17. FSM said “Good grief, Jeff. That’s some massively hypocritical hogwash. Your buddy couldn’t and wouldn’t lead a woman as a godly husband if you held a gun to his head. You’ve spouted and spouted about women being no good, being broken and damaged, being dangerous to men, probably worthless to begin with and declining in value, but you’ve got no judgements against your sexually immoral, pig of a man friend out there using and breaking them… … seriously?”

    You misunderstood me. When I said I don’t judge him as a person, I didn’t mean that no judgments could be passed on his suitability as a husband. On the contrary, I think an intelligent woman would be able to figure out that he’s not marriage material at this point. But since he has no intention of getting married, I don’t see it as an issue anyway. If some girl is willing to date him (and a number of them are), again, that’s her decision. And either of them is free to end it at anytime.

    My warning to young ladies is that oftentimes when men get to their 40’s, they’ve been put through the divorce wringer like my buddy was, and they become bitter, mercenary, cynical, etc. It’s a totally different experience from dating a young man still in his twenties and never married, who is more likely to still view marriage in a more idealistic way, to be more of a romantic, to be more open with his heart, etc.

    And I don’t think women are warned about this, when it’s suggested they postpone marriage to focus on career, and to travel and have adventures. If anything, the only factor they’re told to consider is their biological clock. Thus, they are surprised and disappointed to discover these facts later. I think it better if they are told about these things at a younger age. Knowledge is power.


  18. Linds said: “But, more than that…what if women didn’t value marriage so much? What if the strike ensued and marriage dwindles? Would women become more focused on growing individually and being whole, and looking at their life and future as something more broad? What if we were ok to wait, or to be single?”

    Good luck with that. This would require a change in the basic nature of females, and human nature rarely changes.

    Every woman I’ve known, without exception, panics when she reaches a certain age still unmarried, and is facing old maid status. Esp if she is not in a serious relationship that she could see leading to marriage. One ex-gf of mine handled it so badly, that by the time she reached her 50’s still single, she had a mental breakdown which caused her to lose her job.

    A shame, and I could have given her good advice on how to have changed certain things about herself to attract a husband (I know what men want) but she didn’t need want to hear it. So I finally cut off contact with her, because her mental state just became too scary. At this point, she is indeed very much “broken” and absolutely unsuitable for marriage. Very sad.

    So Linds, I just don’t view your question as realistic at all. Not in my experience, anyway. I mean, every single girl I dated in my 20’s wanted to marry me….and some were pretty pushy about it! I just don’t see women quietly accepting old maid status. It’s not gonna happen. Not in our lifetimes, anyway.

      1. Sure, well it’s my experience.

        Do you have experience to the contrary? Do you know many never-married women in their 40s, 50s, and 60s who are quite happy about it? I’d be curious…because I don’t think I’ve ever seen it.

        1. I personally have a relative. She’s 51 years old, never married. She was engaged but the guy wanted to live with her before marriage and she wasn’t willing to compromise. That was about 28 years ago, i think. She’s never had kids, but she takes care of an aging parent. I’m sure she wonders what her life would have been like if she had a husband and kids, but she still has a full life. She’s happy with her nieces and nephews and now even had a great great niece. She’s a lot happier than any of the other women in her family, who married jerks or men who don’t Participate in their marriage.

          And my mom was 48years old when she got married the 3rd time. First was a divorce, second her husband died of cancer 20years ago. She’s been married almost 7years and she’s happy as a clam. Because she took care of 3 kids and herself for so long, and her husband had custody of his kids, they don’t need each other in the traditional sense. Love and friendship and commitment keep their marriage together. Not obligation and inability to take care of themselves.

          I actually know quite a few women who are divorced or never married who are quite happy with out the burden of a husband. I know women who love being married too, and women stuck in lifeless marriages or with men who only use them as a maid and a sex toy.

          I’ve been observing marriages since i was in my early teens, at least 20 years ago. I actually met my husband when i was 16and he was 18, so we both make up each other’s almost entire history. We’re both damaged by our past but we try. Marriage is about 2 broken people trying to make it in this crazy world. One of the most important decisions you’ll ever make is the person you marry, the others are how you choose to live your life.

        2. Molly,

          I know elderly women who are happy they never remarried after being widowed, and that I completely understand. Because women have longer life expectancy, many of them would have wound up being, in effect, his nurse. And while it’s one thing to make that sacrifice for the husband (or wife, for that matter) that you spent your adult life with, raised a family with, etc…it’s quite another to assume that role for someone you met so late in life, and married just for companionship.

          But I’m never met a never-married woman in her 40s or 50s who was happy that she ended up without a husband and family. No doubt some exist, but based on my experience they must be quite a small percentage. I’ve noticed that many of these “old maids”, once in their 50s, just resign themselves to being alone for the rest of their lives. It’s sad to see, and I can’t help but wonder what kind of choices they made regarding men in their prime dating years decades earlier.

          To learn a lot more about such choices and HOW these women end up alone, I highly recommend Lori Gottleib’s book, “Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough”. If you know any young ladies in the dating market, do them a favor and buy them this book! They’ll thank you later…

          1. Thanks, but i already have a wealth of information for young women in regards to marriage. I’m good.
            The biggest piece of advice i give women is to marry an upright, hopefully Christian man who loves them, treats them well, doesn’t treat them like a piece of meat or trash, is good with kids, has a good work ethic, and a sense of humor. And they treat ALL WOMEN with respect, not just those they deem worthy. Any man who can’t treat a woman with dignity or respect isn’t worth the time of day.
            That’s my advice for women in the dating world.

  19. Holy cow, Matt! this is quite thread. I just wanted to say that I’ve been reading your posts from nearly the beginning of your journey, at a time when my husband and I were on the brink of divorce. Like, literally talking to attorneys, deciding on mediation and talking to counselors about how to prepare our children.

    I’m not going to blow smoke and say that you alone saved us, but I can tell you that reading your perspective has made a huge impact on my own view of marriage. It opened me up to a new way of looking at what was happening in my life, how I can be accountable/responsible, and also appreciating what my husband was going through and how I played a part in that.
    I’ve shared a few of your posts with him and although I’m not sure how often he follows your blog, I know that you are the kind of guy he would respect and listen to.

    Mostly, I just want to say thanks for choosing to put yourself and your experience out there. Especially in light of the incumbent US President and guys like Jeff Strand, it’s refreshing and REASSURING that men like you exist. Not perfect by any means (just as women are imperfect), but willing to acknowledge the imperfections in themselves and their partner, and finding a way to move forward in love – without blame, animosity or resentment.

    One piece of advice I’ll take from Mr. Strand – you do you. Please. Keep on doing it, because it’s sooooo needed at a time like this! And thanks again!

    1. “Especially in light of the incumbent US President and guys like Jeff Strand, it’s refreshing and REASSURING that men like you exist. Not perfect by any means (just as women are imperfect), but willing to acknowledge the imperfections in themselves and their partner, and finding a way to move forward in love – without blame, animosity or resentment.”

      LOL, too funny! So men should be more like Matt and less like me, right?

      Well let’s see. Matt’s wife divorced him, blew up their family, and is now with another man. (Don’t take that wrong Matt, I’m not trying to offend or insult you…just laying out some bare facts)

      As for me? Well I’ll be approaching 2 decades of marriage pretty soon, and have several kids. My wife adores me, is very much in love with me, is still very attracted to me physically and intimately, and won’t entertain the thought of marrying another man even in the case of my untimely death. Of course, I’ve pretty fond of her as well, lol. We rarely to never fight, and share our lives together with lots of love and laughs. And yes, she respects and obeys me as the head of the household. I would expect (and accept) nothing less.

      If you asked my wife, she would tell you she feels loved, protected, provided for, secure, and feminine. Because I make her feel like a woman. And this is irresistible to almost all females. Further, she is very comfortable submitting and surrendering to me in all things. She is aligned with her female nature, not in rebellion against it.

      In short, we are thriving in a successful marriage and family, and are as happy as clams. That’s just the facts.

      And you lament that there are men like me out there? Lol, when you yourself are on the brink of a failed marriage? Wow. Logic, much? You’re ready to give your husband the boot, and yet you’re gonna criticize my marriage (one in which you couldn’t pry me out of my wife’s embrace if you offered her a million dollars.)

      P.S. Hillary got her you-know-what handed to her. Including losing the vote of white women. Deal with it, my dear little special snowflake.

      1. Well Jeff, as someone who as been happily married for 30 years I have to empathize there. The number one thing I hear from both sides of the political aisle is, “You’re a horrible person and you’re doing marriage all wrong!”

        Kind of funny really, I’ve built consensus among red pills and feminists alike. See, I’m creating harmony in the world already. 🙂

      2. IB,

        You nailed it.

        It takes a special kind of disconnect from reality for people who are either divorced or whose marriage is on the rocks (like QTB)…to lecture those of us who are happily married that we are “doing marriage all wrong”.

        I find it hard to comprehend that level of arrogance and denial.

      3. Your life sounds truly perfect, Jeff. I wonder, then, if you and your wife have ever experienced any sort of trials or struggles? From my limited experience, no one and nothing is perfect. See, like many married folks, my husband and I are on the same page about many things, and differ in our views in other ways. If I wanted to marry a clone of myself, why bother with anyone else?

        I think the best test of any relationship is how you deal in the face of adversity. It’s easy to love and claim happiness when sh*ts all rainbows and roses, but how you deal with the hard stuff — in my view, that’s what matters.

        I’m not here to say who’s a better person, and I find it interesting that you make inferences in that way from the very deeply personal conversations here. While you are apparently viewing it as a competition, I was thinking of it in terms of how each person deals with life lessons. I see Matt as someone who has admittedly (in a very public forum) made some life-altering mistakes, and ones that I’m sure he’d do differently, if given the opportunity. But he’s not sitting here pouting and whining and blaming it on some sexist and cave-man view of life; instead, he’s doing his best to take something away from it. THAT’S what I find refreshing and reassuring.

        You have stated over and over how much your wife and all your ex-girlfriends adore and love you – that must feel amazing for you. But obeying you as the head of the household? Rarely to never fight? Sounds like rainbows and unicorns to me, Jeff. And quite frankly, utterly BORING.

        You do you for as long as your wife will have you, my little snuggle buggy! As far as I’m concerned, that’s one less sexist, self-righteous ass trolling the world.

        1. Wholelotta,

          Wow, your husband married a real peach, didn’t he? Oh well, his choice, he can live with the consequences.

          Better him than me, lol!

        2. Come now you two, stop fighting! This instant. 🙂

          But I want to just address this part, “Sounds like rainbows and unicorns to me, Jeff. And quite frankly, utterly BORING.”

          Isn’t it interesting how we ALL say we want a happy and contented marriages, unicorns and rainbows? And yet when you really get to the bottom of it, that’s not what we want at all. I mean how “BORING.” We’d go insane!

          You see the exact same thing on the internet. We all want to get along, have pleasant conversations,and learn from one another, right? Wrong! Boring. No discomfort, no controversy….. no sexual tension.

          “I think the best test of any relationship is how you deal in the face of adversity.”

          This kind of made me laugh. You mean,how HE deals with the adversity you plan to throw at him. We’re not testing “the relationship,” we’re testing the man to see if he’s worthy of the relationship!

          So, my secret to unicorns and rainbows is to be really honest with yourself about what you truly want, and then to embrace it and have some fun with it.

          1. I do recognize the potential dichotomy here, but I actually am not searching for unicorns and rainbow. Happiness, yes. A loving relationship based on mutual respect- absolutely.

            And no, I don’t mean we’re testing the man and not the relationship. I mean that my life, my husband’s life and the lives of our kids were tested in unprecedented ways. My husband and I chose to stay together, in spite of the challenges we’ve faced. And I have no doubt we’ll continue to deal with issues that arise — new and old. I know I’m a better person for having been through it and I believe he is, too.

          2. “A loving relationship based on mutual respect- absolutely.”

            My, how utterly BORING that sounds. See, it’s easy to play that game.

          3. No disrespect Jeff, I’m just wondering why you follow Matt. Your marriage sound perfect and you and your wife are, by all your accounts, happy. So why are you following and so involved in a blog by a man that lost his wife and family and is trying to make the best of his bad situation? What is it that YOU gain by following this blog that is so contrary to your beautiful life. Just wondering because I’m starting to think that the man doth protest too much.

          4. KJCJ: “Your marriage sound perfect and you and your wife are, by all your accounts, happy. ”

            Thanks, we are indeed very happy and blessed. The way I put it is, while neither me nor my wife are perfect, we are perfect for each other.

            As far as following this blog, perhaps it didn’t occur to you I follow many such blogs, not just this one. I’m interested in the topic of modern marriage in this country. I read what other people have to say regarding their experiences, and sometime I add my own 2 cents. You can agree or disagree, that’s up to you.

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Matt Fray

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