Do Nice Guys Really Finish Last?

Comments 48

If we are referring to orgasms: Absolutely. I mean, you want her to like it and want to do it again, right? Sure, you do.

But in the Game of Life, as most people mean it when saying that phrase? I call bullshit.

I see it over and over again.

Because I’m a guy, and because Neil Strauss commercialized the pick-up artist industry and perhaps inadvertently turned the “seduction community” into a mainstream thing, I am often bombarded with “Here’s How to Get More Chicks!” marketing messages or “Be a man and learn some game!” blog comments.

It’s all coming from the same groups many of you may already be familiar with: MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), The Red Pill, or anyone identifying himself as a PUA (pick-up artist).

Like most things in life, it’s not as black and white as it might seem. There are lessons to be learned about self-respect, self-confidence, and general life tips for more effectively meeting strangers. A lot of guys suck at walking up to a pretty girl at the grocery store, striking up non-awkward conversation, and generating enough mutual interest for her to want to exchange contact information, or possibly date or sleep with him.

I’ve never been shy about telling you that scares me, and I can count on one hand how many times I’ve done it in the past three years. She probably has a boyfriend. She’s probably in a hurry. I don’t want to bother her. I don’t want to be a creeper. I don’t want to talk to her in front of her kids. I don’t want to talk to her in front of my kid. I don’t want her to judge the contents of my shopping cart. We probably wouldn’t work anyway.

There’s an endless string of irrational thoughts we invent in our own minds whenever we’re afraid of something and missing too much information. If we all walked around wearing signs: “Hi. I’m Tabitha. I’m divorced. Single. Have a son in fourth grade. Two dogs. I’m friendly. Please feel free to say hi!” or “Hi. I’m Linda. My relationship status doesn’t matter. I’m an introvert and don’t want to talk to you. Ever,” it would make things a lot easier for all parties.

To be sure, the PUA community sometimes offers valuable advice and perspective for men with self-esteem issues, or to decent guys who know too well the stomach-turning feeling right before walking up to a girl while praying none of the bad outcomes you just imagined in your head actually happen.

But, let’s be honest. Like totally, no-bullshit, let’s-not-pretend-this-isn’t-true-for-politically-correct-reasons honest: Most of these guys are assholes.

Some are not assholes. Some are pro-men (not anti-women) in much the same way most people who identify themselves as feminists aren’t anti-men. This is my one-size-never-fits-all disclaimer.

I know all of these guys are not misogynists.

I know all of these guys do not live lives that revolve around how much sex they have.

I know all of these guys do not think men are better than women.

I know all of these guys do not lie to women for the sole purpose of sleeping with them while secretly planning to never speak to them again.

But, right or wrong, I get the impression that many—probably most—do.

These men do as much good for the reputation of men as white supremacists do for caucasians.

This morning, someone was trying to sell me a book via email that would help me “slay hot chicks” and learn an important life secret about “Why nice guys will ALWAYS finish last.”

My “dishes” post received more misogynistic comments than I care to count, and a ton I couldn’t approve because I wasn’t going to let douchebag strangers call female commenters or my ex-wife the most-vile names our language has for women.

So, I’m going to pick on Jeff, who left this gem yesterday under She Feels Like Your Mom and Doesn’t Want to Bang You:

“Ha! You are so wrong and all of your dweeb followers. Women belong in the kitchen making sammiches. When i did all that shit and i mean all of it (i had to teach my wife how to bath and diaper our child etc etc) i cleaned cooked, house work. I think the most she did was grocery shop so she could find the most expensive organic produce. I had less sex. Now i dont do shit and have more sex. If she is home all day she can clean my underwear. If she wants me to do all that shit again, i will just take her debit card from her, hire a maid and get meals for myself and she can mve out.

“Its a fact that prostitutes are cheaper per sex than a wife.

“If my wife complains i ask her to go to work and i would be more than happy to stay home and clean and cook and talk with family and friends at my liesure. That shuts her up.”

That’s a solid example of the kind of guy I’m talking about.

He thinks because I’m single and not sleeping with a bunch of strangers all the time that I’m living incorrectly. And he thinks he has it all figured out and has mastered life because, if his comment is to be believed, he’s married to a subservient sandwich maker who blows him on demand.

I hope he’ll believe me when I say I don’t envy him.

Hey Guys! You’re Going to Get Old and Die

This may be hard for some to understand: I don’t think men should measure their lives by how much sex they have.

I know what cheap-and-meaningless looks and feels like. Maybe it makes you feel good. I don’t know. I only know what I experience. I don’t get it. I’ve never liked it.

I know what meaningful looks and feels like. That has always been good. I’ve never found it difficult to tell the difference.

Rather than pretend to be someone you’re not to get laid, why not make the real version of you awesome?

Rather than lie to con women into bed in order to feel accomplished, why not tell the truth to do so and see how much better it is?

Rather than disgrace our gender with pick-up tactics somewhat indistinguishable from sexual assault, why not behave with code and honor?

You don’t have to trick people to get them to consider you interesting. All you have to do is learn enough about something (you know, like you did with PUA tactics) to exhibit a little depth and intellect, and then you actually BECOME interesting in real life to anyone with similar interests.

The Measure of a Man

I think how much a man knows is worth more than how much sex he has.

I think how much skill a man acquires through hard work and practice is worth more than how much sex he has.

I think how successful a man is at achieving a harmonious and mutually beneficial marriage or relationship is worth more than how much sex he has (though, to be sure, he’ll be having a lot of sex in this case).

I think how successfully a man prepares children for adulthood and earns their love, admiration, respect and appreciation, is worth more than how much sex he has.

I think the stories people tell about a man at his funeral is worth more than how much sex he had.

I think how it feels in the silence—when all the lights and noise are shut off and there’s nowhere to hide—is a good barometer for how well we are living.

I think kindness and treating people well (including ourselves), striving to walk the higher path and sacrificing for something greater than ourselves, is a more noble effort than carving another notch on a bedpost.

I don’t know what the true measure of a man is. But I know this bullshit, Fuck People Over so I Can Periodically Feel Good for an Hour and Never Contribute Anything Meaningful philosophy ISN’T it.

We’re all going to die one day. And maybe we’ll have a little time to think about it before we do.

I already have enough regrets to reflect on when that day comes.

Maybe you do, too.

Nice guys finish last? Measured in cheap-sex currency? Sure.

Measured in any way that’s not morally bankrupt, or in penis-disease quotients?

Don’t bet on it.

48 thoughts on “Do Nice Guys Really Finish Last?”

  1. I’m glad you feel this way (and say it). In real life, I know plenty of men who seem…. nice, who grow as people, who consider others, who want good relationships (and even if they “just” want casual sex, they don’t approach it from a place of thinking that women are inferior). But sometimes I somehow stumble across these nasty places on the internet where some men say with such utter confidence that all women are good for is sex and housework (except for modern western women of course who’re too ugly and useless even for that thanks to feminism), that you should treat women like crap to keep them on their toes, and even that rape should be used as a weapon to keep women in their place and make sure men get their needs met and on and on. Sometimes it’s hard not to worry that maybe these guys aren’t just anomalies. But it seems like my perception is right, most men agree more with you.

    1. I think these guys can demonstrate that their tactics, rooted in legit psychology, are successful in appearing more attractive to, and seducing women.

      There is no question, in very general terms, that most women are more attracted to the inked bad boy or the guy manipulating million-dollar deals in high-stakes negotiations over the friendly bank manager or unassuming guy volunteering at the soup kitchen.

      And I don’t think there is anything wrong with that.

      I am attracted to certain things. I am not attracted to others. I think everyone is that way. No judgment.

      But I think to intentionally manipulate and mislead people who think you might be interested in them, only for them to later learn they were little more than the PUA’s human-masturbation device, is depraved.

      I’m totally fine with people engaging in casual sex if A. They find life satisfaction in it, B. It’s consensual, C. It’s honest, and D. It falls within an individual’s personal code of conduct.

      I just think it’s disgusting to lie about it. And I think many of these people who do are going to die lonely and with enormous regret.

      They, and not just their victims, deserve better. They just don’t know it yet.

  2. Matt, YOU don’t have to trick people to get them to consider you interesting. The Jeffs of the world might need to. Good luck fielding the comments on this one!

    1. I assure you, anyone in the MGTOW, Red Pill, PUA community thinks I’m a complete and utter failure.

      I can live with that.

  3. Click on this page and then go to “An Open Letter to Shitty Husbands” at the top of the page. Vol 1 is the one I was speaking of this morning but feel free to read any of them.

  4. At the end of the day, it’s about integrity to me. All I saw in that mans comment is someone who wants “power over” someone in order to feel whole. Im fascinated by that mentally because they tend to be the most scared of emotions and themselves. Thank you again for your insightful post. ❤️ sending gratitude

  5. I think there is a crisis of masculinity in our culture and as another commenter wrote it has to do with men and their unspoken entitlement issues. That is where it is so confusing for women. Many men are sophisticated (read that: proficient at conning) enough to know that most modern women would react strongly against a guy who said the things that Jeff said out of the gate. The problem is that they don’t and they’re driven by a lot of their “unspoken” expectations of women, marriage, and family life. It sometimes feels like bait and switch.

    1. Trust me, that goes both ways. Before settling down, I dated many women who identified as modern feminists. Two that I did get serious with, to the point of discussing marriage and kids, turned out that when push came to shove, not so much.

      When discussing kids I mentioned that I often thought that I would love to be a stay at home dad if finances made it possible, that it would be a dream of mine. I felt I could work part time from home and save us lots of money spent on nannies or daycare.

      Both women reacted very poorly to that idea. Neither thought a man should have the option of staying home, but should provide for the family. I wasn’t dating conservative christians here, but educated women in professional careers.

      I eventually gave up on that dream.

      1. I give you credit for clearly communicating your wishes, dreams, expectations to your potential partners. The departure that each of them made from the relationship means that your values and their values weren’t consistent. Better to know that before marriage and children than after that. I hear from too many partners who are departing relationships because of the unspoken expectations.

  6. “I think how successfully a man prepares children for adulthood and earns their love, admiration, respect and appreciation, is worth more than how much sex he has.

    I think the stories people tell about a man at his funeral is worth more than how much sex he had.

    I think how it feels in the silence—when all the lights and noise are shut off and there’s nowhere to hide—is a good barometer for how well we are living.”

    Yes. This. This significantly reflects what makes a man great in the eyes of a real wife and makes her want to work through the bad times and in the good or even halfway decent times want him in every way.

    I doubt I have to worry too much about the type of guys you refer to as doing this massive manipulations on purpose. I don’t expect I’m their target girl at 45 just dumped and struggling with the stress, the insomnia and resulting bags under the eyes, and separate health issues as well. And I don’t think my personal standards leave me very open to their powers since I’m learning better every year to live by Biblical standards that put healthy sex only within marriage. But what concerns me is how often we each fail ourselves and others in becoming more like those folks than we like to admit. What about the guy who was one of the nicest guys but through alcohol’s effects on the brain or through defensiveness, unresolved anger issues, and/or specific marital issues built up over years has grown to believe many unjust things about his wife, and feel justified in mistreating her and then has finally thrown away his own commitment and standards so that he could leave? Is he any less culpable for stealing years of her life and destroying parts of her that trusted what he committed to originally to stay and work through it honestly no matter how hard it got?

    How often do we all in our marriages latch onto non-constructive thinking about our spouse and hold onto it for all the years until said spouse leaves always making it a roadblock to doing a successful job of “doing the hard work” of marriage, of staying committed and working through things? And in the end when we roadblock aren’t we culpable on a deep significant level? And when one of us gives up and permanently ends what was promised as forever, why does society justify it and pretend that it is so much better than the guy who lied in the first place in the other scenario? He did what he did more maliciously, so there is some merit in recognizing that. Certainly its unlikely that the girl he did that too really signed on for his malicious nature. But he also maybe only stole a night or a few nights from someone mutually consenting to have uncommitted sex. The one who pretended to or genuinely believed in real commitment and stole years upon years and then put his whole family through a wood-chipper has been far more destructive and stolen far more from his wife and then also from his own children,

    I wonder if some of those who are on the edge of desperation and considering giving up on what was supposed to have been a real commitment might benefit not only from this blog but from this posting on another:

    1. I agree, there are many ways of lacking in integrity and treating other people badly short term and long term (and I’m guilty too ) When things go south after years of committed partnership and kids (or when things are bad for years) – that’s awful. I really like the saying “the grass is greener where you water it”. Sometimes you’ve done what you can, I don’t advocate staying in a relationship where you’re not being treated with respect and consideration and where your deal-breakers are not respected even after having tried your best, made compromises and so on. But the article is so right, sometimes people chase after the 20 % they don’t have and forget what they have. Maybe someone thinks their partner is too emotional, but they forget that that person also makes them laugh out loud and is great at validating people’s feelings. Maybe someone isn’t a go-getter in their career, but they’re great at enjoying what they have and they accept their partner as they are.

      I’m so sorry you’re going through such a hard time. Sending you an internet hug if you want it!

      1. Thank-you, Donkey! I’ll take a hug! 😉

        I started around Christmas to accept that this relatively new declaration of never going to put the full effort (or constructive work) in was real. It is a long, hard, bumpy road. Now that I’ve finally gotten to the point that it’s 100% real and I’m finally no longer dragging my emotions around trying to view it from a million different angles as to what I could or should do to stay open to reconciliation, it turns out there are still a million more things to go through to just live through the yuck of divorce until you get to the other side. But at least I’ve passed the first couple of hurdles. I no longer want him back or want to help him get his head right so that he can heal too. (I still understand him, have compassion and prayer for his massive mess, want him to heal I’m just not taking any ownership of his healing.) I’m now just planning and making a start my own healing as best I can.

        He has his own issues to heal from, that he’s not going to now let me help with after leaving me. My son, age 24 won’t speak with him. Our daughter, age 15 won’t speak with him. And our daughter, age 18 speaks with him on his level. She’s the most able to push all emotion aside similarly to his own way of operating. But it still kills her and he has no idea how much she’s hurting or some of the frightening ways it has come out on the days she can’t keep squashing it all down for one more day. (She’s a writer and on her rare occasions of dealing openly with her emotions has distilled it down perfectly and come out with some of the the best wording for how destructive and painful it all is!) It’s just easier for him to not know the truth and be glad of his fantasy that at least the one child that he put the most real investment in and had the easiest time with is OK with him. But all of his brokenness and holding everyone at arm’s length and refusing to work with people on a real level that acknowledges and accepts who they really are and how they are really different from himself, is now blessedly outside of my sphere. And I figure if I can learn to accept that and just keep working on my own issues that’s progress!

        And if I can progress in that then maybe one day I’ll be ready for a healthy dynamic with a healthy man who can understand and accept his side of the responsibility for a lifetime of love as an action, love as a sacrifice, love as true esteem and genuine effort in the face of what may seem incomprehensible or may require help to address.

  7. Not too get too deep and heavy here, but those guys aren’t really engaging in misogyny, it’s not actually hatred of women, it’s fear and loathing of their own selves. That can be really heart breaking to watch. Fortunately many of them are so hostile and nasty it’s easier to forget to feel bad for them.

    1. You have hit the nail on the head. That’s the real connection I see between those guys and my own soon-to-be-ex (and maybe people in general who pretend to marriage but then don’t really do what it takes to make it real and good “till death”)

      We all have our own insecurities, mistakes, brokenness. And it’s generally true that people hurt other people in both the larger ways and the smaller ways, in both the obvious ways and the more personal, individual, hidden ways out of their own hurts. It’s all related. And it all requires personal accountability for people to fix their own stuff. It’s just easier to spot in these guys we like to call misogynists because their level of mistreating others is so open and out there, screaming their low-life nature for all the world to see.

      1. Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say. Being able to own your own stuff is key to having healthy relationships and when you just try to dump your baggage on someone else, it just makes a mess of things. Some of these guys who think it’s all about picking up dozens of women and than rejecting them, aren’t really engaging in misogyny, although that’s what it appears like on the surface, what they’re actually doing is trying to run from their own demons.

  8. Aren’t you ever so intrigued to peel Jeff down to the truth nugget of his insecurity? Man! I’d love to see where that life illusion is rooted……

    “Penis-disease quotient?”….. Seriously, Matt, only you think up crazy stuff like that. =D

  9. bygeorgeithinkyou'vegotit

    Wow… I’ve heard this line so many times.

    “If my wife complains i ask her to go to work and i would be more than happy to stay home and clean and cook and talk with family and friends at my liesure. That shuts her up.”

    1. The thing here that personally resonated from my last 18 years of marriage was “last guys finish last” most often worded from my soon to be ex as “girls don’t really want nice guys. they think they do, but then they don’t like them.” And I can honestly say it was unfair to me and rooted in his own insecurities…generally said after he had been “mean” making it look like he was delusional and had no idea what being “nice” meant.

      When I think of bad boys I might think of my first. He was a musician and obviously tortured from his bad childhood, father’s alcoholism, etc. Or I think of tattoos and drunkeness and other culturally iconic forms of pretending to counter-culture or bad behavior. My husband of these last 18 years was a very nice guy by comparison all the time we dated. But it didn’t stop him from being fairly cruel fairly often after we got married and always ending up believing that he’d done nothing wrong and that somehow I had. I could go the rest of my life without hearing another insecure guy bemoaning all the benefits they think bad guys get over and above good guys…or more to the point without ever hearing another inference about how I supposedly would be good to a guy who was even nastier than whatever mean behavior was just being thrown at me or one of my kids!

  10. I’m amazed at how many women are attracted to assholes. I don’t buy their lines…or expectations. And it will probably (already) cost me in the long run with lonely nights. I’d much rather have respectful and confident in his own skin. I think the stereotypical ‘nice guy’ is usually synonymous (at least in my book) with indecisive and wimpy with regard to a place of conviction about anything. I think most guys in general are in the middle of the ‘bell curve’ with extremes of asshole and ‘nice guy’ on either end. I don’t know that I would ever consider you a stereotypical ‘nice guy’, Matt, with your strong convictions and assertive personality.
    (Not that I wouldn’t think you were a nice guy…) 🙂

    1. bygeorgeithinkyou'vegotit

      I really don’t know how I allowed myself to “believe” he was not an asshole. There were large enough indications in the first few years, but I passed them as, “ok, he’s in a bad mood”, “ok, he’s under a lot of stress and I’m not in his shoes”. He sometime made me feel great and I felt we make a great team (as he said), but after having children was the true test, and I now know he’ll never see me as his equal. It’s sad, because if he only would have been kind to me (equal), the possibility of “forever after” could have been a reality. Sad for our children mostly… I cry everyday.

  11. Redpill is like religion. It takes a starting point of self-empowerment and some basic true premises (i.e. improve yourself, and here are some psychological truisms that tend to work to get laid)… but then at level 2 and up, you end up in a “cult of your own weiner” type religion. That’s why it’s so dangerous. It would be less so if it were ridiculous on it’s face.

  12. “Rather than pretend to be someone you’re not to get laid, why not make the real version of you awesome?” This is so true… once a woman grows up and figures out who she is she doesn’t need the bad boy any longer and wants a real person… If men present the real person inside they might find the right match or even mutually agreeable casual fun… even bad boys can be real… 😉

  13. Such a contrast, the hatred of Jeff’s words and the vision of a man’s funeral and how it feels in the silence. How is it possible these things live side by side in a post (which they somehow do seamlessly, to your great credit) or more unbelievably, in life?
    I’ve never heard of such a thing as a PUA and bad boys have never been of interest (talk about baggage), but I liked this one. Each day we tell our children to persist, to participate, and to be kind. Could be advice from a life coach or marriage counselor…

  14. Nice guys who are bitter they have to help out their chick mates and think generic niceness and decency and being there for a person is enough to get sex. Just being decent and nice is not enough. Its not, at best it can be “nice but boring”, at worst it can be “we were in the same circle/group/class/worked to got her and were barely friends”.
    All those guys really miss the point in what some women may prefer.
    Even saying that, I don’t like boring people, but I know people who would probably love boring people. Some of my former friends would’ve loved a simple guy.
    Also, its not just being friendly, there is things like chemistry, relationship readiness, things in common, ability to cope with someone having a life outside of you, maturity, dynamics of the group, personality, hobbies, comfortableness, life, and just feeling it. Its not just, being around each other occasionally = new gf.
    There is no cheat code, some women like this (undeniable leader), others like that(nurturing sweetheart), yet others prefer another type of man(simple with few hobbies).

  15. I never really dated in high school or ever. I married my high school sweet heart after dating him exclusively for 10 years. We were married for 10 and then divorced. I have been in the dating world now for about 15 years. I’ve dated plenty and had 2 relationships. One inked bad boy which was obviously me trying to recapture some of my youth. It was a mistake from the onset. The other a nice guy with the momma issue of your previous post.

    Honestly, from my experience men just don’t know how to be men anymore. “Jeff” (ironically my ex’s name) sounds like abusive neanderthal.

    I have had the same conversations with myself in the grocery store while wrestling with the idea of approaching men. Signs would be helpful!

  16. Appreciative Reader

    Thank you Matt. I really appreciate your writing in so many ways. It’s been the light at the end of a dark tunnel for me struggling with a difficult, loveless marriage. I appreciate how honest you are about your feelings and I sense your deep respect for how tough it is to be a woman. You never hear that from men. I just wanted to say thank you so much for putting yourself out there to try to help others. You are an excellent writer with much to say worth reading. Finding your blog was the best thing that has happened to me.

  17. Good guys finish first in my book. Assholes, bad boys, and douche bags don’t get in my panties, that’s for certain.

  18. My husband is a nice guy and he seems to have won the wife lottery. 😉

    I think one of the problems is that people don’t understand what “nice guy” means versus a complete lunkhead. This is an important distinction to make because being nice has nothing to do with being passive or un-masculine. Conversely, being a complete lunkhead, an insensitive jerk, has nothing to do with being man.

    1. Also “Nice” its not enough to build a relationship on for the love of XXX.
      If nice was enough to build an entire relationship on, I’d be the most popular chick in school, but alas, things like, personality, chemistry, the rest of the group (s), fun, feeling safe, feeling up for a relationship, maturity, hobbies, sense of self, what you want out of the people you spend a lot of time with, et cetera, All of these things matter in the start a relationship.
      These people who act like “Oh I was nice to her and thus she must be with me, and I am not at alll jealous she picked someone else, at allll” are all liars and not in touch with how they really feel.
      Maybe you were nice to her, but she felt a actual connection with someone else.
      I’ve heard stories of guys being like “She didn’t run away screaming, she must adore my very soul”, except, not. It’s not that simple and people over the age of 13 should understand that.
      You can be nice all you want, but if the woman doesn’t feel like a relationship with you, a relationship will not be happening and the least you could do is move onto the next girl and not be bitter about it.

      1. I think what you speak of is entitlement. There is a powerful sense of entitlement in the world today, from both genders, as if we can just go forth and pick the spouse we want like we were shopping for a commodity or an accessory, and than he or she is supposed to just love us because we’re so awesome.

        It’s sad because then if it doesn’t work out, people do become bitter and they often blame the other person. Marriage is a gift, a miracle really, it’s not an entitlement.

  19. My fiancé dabbled with the PUA thing a while ago. He still has Neil Strauss’s books which I will covertly get rid of one of these days. Anytime we are discussing relationships or I say something remotely criticizing a standard male action/response of someone we are discussing, he’s very quick to generalize all women as male bashers who use and abuse men. I call him on it immediately and we drop it, but that PUA bullshit doesn’t help men with self esteem. It turns them into bitter, hurt-women-before-they-hurt-you assholes. It’s taken me 4 yrs to get him to not make misogynistic remarks on the regular. The good thing about him is once I tell him something bothers me, he doesn’t do it again unless it’s on accident.

    1. Yikes. Not to pile on, but I do agree that on the face of it, that sounds concerning. In the midst of my 18 year marriage ending I’m looking back at silences and insecurities that I never recognized for what they were…and even that same projection you mentioned, him projecting on me that women are bad to men whenever he could see me struggling with something about him that he justified because he considered it just a part of being male or whenever he saw me react negatively to a guy in a show.

      Of course, I do not know any the millions of details of your fiancé or your relationship so it’s just a quick internet impression. But I do have a couple of suggestions. Take what’s useful and leave everything else behind (as with the Internet in general) 1) Make sure that the two of you can work well together on real projects. Volunteer building houses for habitat for humanity, help a hoarder clear out his or her house, grow a garden together. There could be tons of other possibilities but the projects need to include real work, stresses and obstacles to be resolved and real cooperation. So don’t sign up at Habitat and then get assigned to two unrelated teams or anything like that. Just pick anything that gets you out of the virtual world and into true cooperative productivity. And 2) get premarital counseling so that you already have a safe structure and trusted counselor to work with in the early years after the wedding, when those first fights can be handled productively or can start planting seeds of never-resolved-never-understood that quietly grow until they are not so quiet anymore. It’s great to be good at letting things go. It’s not so great when they are really just festering instead of truly released.

      In my case I also needed individual counseling. My husband probably did as well, but he like a large number of men was resistant and fatally resentful of the suggestion. I’m not sure how to avoid that problem that men seem so much more prone to except maybe to have that counselor he’s proven to be willing and able to work with in advance. Nevertheless what my (EMDR capable) counselor and my health coach see over and over in their practices is exactly what’s playing out in my life. One partner starts getting healthier and when they have made significant progress but are not yet all the way there the other one doesn’t like it and leaves. Maybe they think it’s because they are tired of waiting for enough good changes. Most of them think that all the problems are the other person’s. But generally they just can’t handled the changing dynamics, the lesser willingness to be put upon and blamed or to absorb outrageous amounts of negatives that are not their own, the new healthier ways of communicating being presented to them. “Healthy people attract and attach to healthy people. Unhealthy people attract and attach to unhealthy people.” is something I’ve heard word for word from both of my pros, who do not know each other, have any connection, work in the same field or even live in the same country. I think they are onto something.

      1. I think I’ve made my fiancé sound like a douchebag, haha and he’s not. Yes, he has his flaws, but he’s also wonderful. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve told him I’m having a shitty day and I’ll come home to a big red heart drawn on a piece of paper hanging on our key holder for me to find it. No words, and he doesn’t say anything about it. It’s just a simple gesture letting me know he’s trying to make it better. I’ll take his flaws, because the good far outweighs the bad for me. But thank you for the advice and I will keep my eyes open for worse red flags. I’m always practical, and I never stay in a situation that makes me unhappy 🙂

  20. I think nice guys with good relationship skills finish first and bad boys with good relationship skills finish second and then I’m not sure who does better out of nice guys with no relationship skills and bad boys with no relationship skills.

    I think a lot of nice guys with no relationship skills look at bad boys who have relationship skills and don’t see that it’s the relationship skills that are getting the girl and think it’s the bad behaviours that are somehow attractive. This is because relationship skills aren’t on a lot of mens’ radars so to some extent they are invisible to them when they see others using these skills. I’ve read men ranting about how they would make much better boyfriends than others and the reasons they give are things like “I would never cheat”, “I would never say nasty things to my partner”. In other words, they define a good boyfriend by an absence of bad behaviour rather than understanding that they actually have to be good at things like making their partner feel funny, interesting, listened to. It’s kind of like saying you’d make a great CEO because you would never run off with the company’s funds or engage in white collar crime while ignoring the fact that you actually need some skills to do the job above and beyond good character.

    I think in a lot of cases women see a bad boy that can make them feel good about themselves some of the time, even if he makes her feel bad a lot too, as more attractive than a “nice guy” who doesn’t make her feel all that good about herself ever, even if he never makes her feel all that bad. But someone who can make you feel amazing all the time and who is actually a nice person is like gold dust and these guys really don’t finish last, sexually or otherwise.

    That said, Matt’s point that character is ultimately way more important than the amount of sex you’ve had in your life, is definitely true.

    1. “I think a lot of nice guys with no relationship skills look at bad boys who have relationship skills and don’t see that it’s the relationship skills that are getting the girl”

      This is really true. Some of those nice guys think they’re “nice” just because they haven’t had an affair or something. Naturally it’s all the other men in the world who are “bad,” not him. He’s awesome, the best thing since sliced bread, and women are all just defective units who chase thugs.

      What’s really attractive is just a bit of self awareness and a touch of humility. Those who know they’re “bad” do tend to be more self aware and have better relationship skills. If you’re aware of your own flaws, you tend to be more gracious towards another person’s flaws too.

    2. Exactly
      You can be as nice as you think you are, but you also gotta build a relationship, a attraction, make people feel above average around you. The good news is that this is a skill which can be learnt, not through red pill, but through learning how to turn the focus off yourself, how to be interested in others, chaschohowol, humility, confidence, how to add to peoples lives, and even if you don’t get the girl, you get a new friend which is just as important.
      Relationship earning/building is hard! Women struggle to, they just don’t start cults around how they are entitled to a husband.
      And yeah, sometimes complete assholes, of both genders can trick people into feeling safe around them, even if they pay you dust and lose interest in treating you well after a year. The moral choice to do if someone you know is being abused is to be there, and if you can’t, find other supports for them.

      1. The struggle with red pillers is that they want to learn to be charming and instead of taking the time and effort to figure out what makes a person charming and putting in the effort to study socially capable mentally healthy positive role models and instead turn into bullying, self focused, instant gratification predatory theories which attack the depressed and the insecure and feature elements like entrapment and reality distortion


    My husband once had a friend who came over and announced that he was dumping his girlfriend. “Why?” We asked. “Because she farted, bro, ugh,” and then he made a poopy face and shuddered.

    My jaw dropped, silence ensued, and neither one of us even knew how to handle it. My husband asked, “Dude, don’t you fart, too?”

    “Yeah, bro, but whatever. It was gross. I already got another chick lined up and she’s ready to fuck, so why bother?”

    I left the room. My husband ended his friendship with his “bro” after that and apologized for not realizing his friend had such poor moral standards. I am willing to bet, now, that my husband gets much more frequent and meaningful sex than his ex-buddy. Maybe not, but probably.

    Oh, and sometimes I fart, and my husband will ask if I heard a duck, and it makes me hope his friend will eventually find joy in a meaningful relationship (and also be able to blame farts on imaginary ducks) because you are right. One day that friend will be alone and sad, and he will fart and it will echo in the emptiness, and it will remind him of that chick he dumped, and how she’s happier than ever now, shamelessly eating beans and farting the day away with her nice new lover.

    You are absolutely right. Nice guys finish first!

  22. Just for the record–old “Jeff” up there is a single, 19-year old douchebag living with his mom and playing out a fantasy. “She can clean my underwear.” Chortle.

  23. Sorry to post on an OLD thread but … “nice guys” is a particular interest of mine. Trouble is, people use the term in different ways. Sometimes it just means, grown-up guys with no unpleasant childish hangups. And sometimes it means doormats. It can be the guys, described in an earlier post, who are so “nice” that they refuse to make any decisions – if their partner says “what shall we have for dinner” they say “whatever YOU want”. It can be the male equivalent of “women who love too much”. Those guys do indeed tend to finish, if not last, somewhere towards the back of the race.

    As for the guy who wrote “Ha! You are so wrong and all of your dweeb followers…” that illustrates things perfectly for me. Because, you know, if he’d written the following: “at one time in my marriage, I was the stay at home partner, and did ALL the housework, and did it very well, but it seemed to neutralise the sexuality in our relationship, and now that I work and my wife stays at home, our sex life is much better…” it’s close to meaning the same, and perhaps we could accept his account of his own experience. And it doesn’t contradict much of what Matt said. The problem with it is not the content, it’s that it’s couched in such terms of screaming hostility. And with a guy like that, it’s not clear that he’s even conscious that he’s doing that.

  24. Pingback: Do Nice Guys Really Finish Last? – Motivational Moments

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Matt Fray

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