I think women, with increasing frequency, are choosing romantic relationships with other women over men because of how poorly men perform the relationship functions women value most.
A few notes:
- Yes. I meant to type that.
- “…with increasing frequency” is difficult to quantify. Maybe we simply hear about it more than we used to because of a reduced fear of judgment, or because of the wide reach of the internet. University-based studies from 2009 through today suggest more females are self-identifying as bisexual or lesbian (15-ish%) than males are as gay (5-ish%), and that 60-ish% of females, regardless of sexual labels, find other women attractive (in a more-than-a-friend way).
- When I talk about “women” or “men” as groups, I’m talking about general, observable behaviors. I’m in no way taking the stance that all women or all men fit into a particular stereotype.
- I’m fully aware that certain groups of people believe homosexuality to be gravely sinful. I have as much respect for people adhering to their faith and personal values as I do for people in their romantic relationships, regardless of who they love. I don’t take kindly to the moral judgment of strangers, ESPECIALLY on matters of homosexuality because of the nauseating levels of hypocrisy from those who turn a blind eye to “straight-sex sinfulness.” I’ll be totally cool with widespread outspoken condemnation of homosexuality just as soon as the morally righteous outcry toward sinful heterosexual behavior matches it. Because only hypocrites like hypocrisy.
- I believe this trend will continue until men collectively commit to not doing all of the Shitty Husband things most of us (accidentally!) do, OR reject relationships with women, forsake family life, and go all-in on A.I. Ex Machina-like sexbots or whatever.
Women Know What Women Want
An excellent writer and speaker named Glennon Doyle Melton had a relatively high-profile separation from her husband recently, just days before her second bestselling book Love Warrior (much of which focused on her marriage to her husband) hit store shelves.
Yesterday, a friend texted me out of the blue: “Glennon is a lesbian. FYI.”
To which I replied: “Shut the eff up. Did she write it?”
“Yep.”
Glennon is now in a relationship with U.S. soccer star Abby Wambach, who became a national celebrity when the U.S. women’s team won the 2015 World Cup.
I was surprised because it still feels unexpected to me to see or hear news that a long-time married mother with children is in a romantic relationship with another woman, but outside of that, I find it totally unsurprising.
During some cursory Googling, I stumbled on this 2010 article from Psychology Today reminding me that Katy Perry, Lindsay Lohan, Angelina Jolie, Lady Gaga, Anna Paquin, Megan Fox, and Drew Barrymore have all publically identified themselves as bisexual.
You’d have thought the world had ended in 1997 when Ellen DeGeneres announced her relationship with actress Anne Heche.
Now, no one cares. Maybe that’s why these incidents are more common today. I don’t pretend to know.
But I DO pretend to know that women generally demonstrate infinitely more understanding about what women want in their intimate relationships than men do.
And given how much I am bombarded with stories of unhappy wives in total agony from how their husbands make them feel, and how much Google traffic this blog gets from women searching for answers to things like “Why doesn’t my husband love me?” or “Why doesn’t my husband care about my feelings?,” it makes a lot of sense to me.
Here’s the hard truth most of these guys need to hear:
There is no amount of money or material goods you can provide to fulfill her wants.
There is no amount of physical fitness, strength, or life skills you can possess to make her feel safe.
There is no amount of penis length or girth, or sexual prowess you can possess to make her forget how bad she feels the rest of the time.
All of your money and your badass-ness and your porn-star-ness can easily earn you a big, fat “Umm, I like women better than you” if you continue to neglect all the things she says she needs.
I have bad news.
You thinking or feeling that her stated needs are unimportant, try as you might, will NOT magically make them unimportant. The things that matter to her, MATTER to her, even when they don’t matter to you. It’s surprisingly easy to float through life not realizing or forgetting that, and then getting divorced because of it.
What She Wants
Another Important Note: No one—certainly not me—knows what an individual human being wants. I’m just some divorced idiot who got all of this stuff wrong when I was married.
The most-effective way of learning the “secrets,” is to respect the first item on this list as if it will ultimately dictate the health of your relationship. Because something simple like LISTENING will.
1. To Feel Seen and Heard
This mostly means “to be listened to.” Not obeyed. Just, heard. Guys like me have an amazing capacity for caring about whatever we happen to care about in the moment, which results in us seeming disinterested or dismissive of something our partners are sharing. Global history is filled with stories of people who wouldn’t tolerate their voices going unheard. So they either revolted or fled. Divorce works that way too.
You know how a bunch of U.S. residents said they were going to move to Canada or Europe if Donald Trump won the election? Well, your unhappy wives are like the disgruntled citizens, and Canada and Europe represent a lesbian oasis of like-minded comfort and acceptance.
2. To Feel Safe
This doesn’t mean you can beat up the guy who gets handsy with her in a crowded bar, or that you can skillfully defend your home from intruders.
It means she feels safe in every way one can. That you can reliably be counted on to have her back and be a steady presence in good times and in bad. That you can be trusted. Not just with sexual fidelity, but all of Life’s tasks and hardships through the years. That you can be a great parent to her children, who she loves intensely and strives to protect. That you can provide financially, or at least NOT be a financial drain on the long-term stability of your household.
All of that feeds into feeling emotionally and psychologically safe and secure. It’s much more than just physical safety.
And to that end, you MUST be a safe refuge for her to discuss the things that matter in her life, including her relationship with you. She must be able to describe her hopes and dreams and stresses and fears WITHOUT you mocking or judging her for it. She must be able to tell you that things you do and say sometimes add to her stresses or fears without you attacking her out of defensiveness.
If she doesn’t feel as if it’s safe to speak to you, she won’t. Eventually, she’ll find someone who will. Sometimes, that person will be another woman who knows—in her core—how vulnerable and dangerous it feels to live with someone who frequently creates negative life experiences rather than positive ones.
3. To Feel Sexually Desired
This is VERY simple. When you two first got together, you said and did things that conveyed appreciation for how she made you feel, how attractive you thought she was, and that you were interested in her sexually.
The thoughtful actions you took and words you said authentically and transparently demonstrated that sexual desire.
The emotional and psychological damage adults take on and/or accidentally inflict on each other throughout the course of a marriage and the trials of adulthood can’t be overstated. Husbands and wives are like two countries who sign a Peace Accord with the best of intentions, but then through the course of normal life, accidentally fire heavy artillery at one another which occasionally lead to short-lived, but bloody, invasions.
We ACCIDENTALLY turn off our partners sexually simply by being ourselves and not realizing certain actions cause the deterioration of those feelings in the other person. No one WANTS to be unattractive to their partners. It just sort of happens when we keep having the same fight over and over and over again.
But when people are MINDFUL of this, and intentionally do things to make our partners feel loved and wanted, much, if not all, of the bad stuff goes away.
Because women frequently demonstrate more thoughtfulness and emotional awareness than men, it’s not surprising to me that other women more effectively convey feelings of desire than many men do.
4. To Feel Appreciated
Everyone likes feeling appreciated. Demonstrating authentic gratitude is a pretty solid Life tip, across the board. But there is a dynamic in male-female relationships that rears its head with great frequency, and is responsible for much of the broken families scattered out there. And that’s the dynamic where wives are forced into the position of managing most Life Tasks around the house. Keeping track of schedules. Packing school lunches. Making doctor appointments and transporting the kids there. Responding to party invitations. Buying the gifts. Planning meals. Acquiring groceries. Paying bills on time. Orchestrating social calendars and holiday plans. Handling school-related matters. Keeping the house clean. Managing laundry. Cooking meals. Washing and putting away dishes. And often going to work just as many hours as her husband.
Sometimes, after all of that, he leaves a dirty dish by the sink for her to clean up even after she’s asked him nicely to not. Sometimes, he continues to do it anyway, and calls her a petty nag for getting upset about it. Often, that guy ends up divorced.
Some wives want more ACTUAL help and to be respected when such requests are made.
But sometimes, wives aren’t even asking for more effort. Sometimes, wives and mothers take pleasure in the skillful management and service of their families and household.
And sometimes the only thing they really crave in return is genuine appreciation.
To not be taken for granted and treated like a housemaid.
Perhaps other women who have walked a mile in those same “housemaid” shoes understand how to never make the person they love feel that way.
‘You Mean You Want Men to Act Like Women?’
Nope.
I want you to learn how to anticipate other people’s needs and adjust your behavior on a case-by-case basis REGARDLESS of that person’s gender, or any other born-this-way quality they have.
That’s what Life’s most successful people do in every imaginable scenario.
Women, for reasons I won’t pretend to know, demonstrate greater skill and competence at anticipating and meeting the needs of others than men do.
Period.
And THAT skill is an incredibly important factor in relationship success.
Learn and develop it, and I think Life gets a lot better because I think the quality of our human relationships affect our lives more than anything outside of certain health conditions.
Ignore it? And I think you’ll spend the rest of your life alone or in and out of unpleasant relationships waiting for Life to bend to your will, only to eventually realize, it never really does.
Maybe some of these women always liked women more than men, and only now feel safe to pursue those relationships.
Maybe some of these women woke up one day after years of heterosexual attraction only to discover those thoughts and feelings had been replaced by new ones.
Or just maybe, a critical mass of women have tried over and over and over again to find a life of contentment and peace with various men through the years, only to have the few they trusted fully, disappoint, betray, or fail them.
And just maybe that pain was so great, that it’s just not worth it anymore.
And just maybe, while we continue to desperately cling to our Man Cards, women will continue to pursue the comfort and safety of other women while we complain to our buddies about their petty needs and fragile emotions as the dust collects on our furniture and we awkwardly fold another load of laundry.
I so wish there was a love button. Thank you Matt, this is spot on for me.
Thank you. This is a lot of conjecture on my part regarding just how many straight and/or formerly married women are turning to same-sex relationships, but I do feel supremely confident that the overarching message of men being able to learn something from it, regardless, has merit.
I appreciate the note!
I’m bisexual, and yea, I prefer women. Can’t explain it, but I guess it’s more effortless with chicks? Guys come across to lack depth sometimes (not always). Thanks for the post 🙂
Right. Oversimplifications don’t do us a lot of good, but I share your feelings here regarding the perception that common male behavior and thought is more shallow and lacking depth than common female behavior.
As always, there are many exceptions. But you can’t have these types of conversations with any efficiency without generalizing a bit.
Thanks for checking it out and weighing in.
“… the perception that common male behavior and thought is more shallow and lacking depth than common female behavior.”
I don’t think that belief and corresponding behavior is likely to improve man-woman relationships.
Reminds me of how my friends and I joke about forming a feminist collective. (There was talk of concubines, though; I’m the only bisexual one… for now;)
I think we avoided making factually incorrect references to centuries-old happenings in this post. Which is always nice. #smallwins
Sorry, you know the Boston girl has to be pedantic about the Pilgrims! 🙂
Well in that case, they aren’t straight women! They are more like “used-to-be-straight” women…
I’m going with not completely straight as gay or bi don’t seem to fit really. 🙂
I think it is great that Glennon is being open (even with herself!) about this.
I’d be lying if I said that I haven’t been thinking about this exact same thing in my own life.
For us that are religious it can feel like a betrayal. But, as recently as 2 weeks or so ago I allowed myself the possibility that God wouldn’t hate me if I started a relationship with another woman. (Not that I have anybody in mind or anything.) But for the longest time I wouldn’t even allow myself the possibility.
And the truth is if my only chance to have a family is to make one with a woman, then- Hell yes. (no pun intended.. :)…
I think what I understood was that God got no pleasure or benefit out of me suffering alone, especially if I could be happy and give and receive love with another woman.
There are a lot of things that I feel are unique to me that play into the frequent
times I feel like connecting with a man is unachievable for me.
Some of those things are I resent feeling like I always need to be pretty.
That I feel like I am never thing enough, or smart enough, or sexy enough.
Even when I try, I don’t seem to “do it” for most men. (And, I am a fairly attractive person. I don’t have a super model body or anything, but I’m at least “not bad”..and I’m not more masculine than feminine…I don’t know what it is..or what it isn’t..)
Things like that will always have women on a hamster wheel for the attention of men.
And for men (usually), it is all about sex….what is sexually attractive to them… When the actual in that body may come in 2nd, or 3rd on list of priorities.
Couple hood and family have so much more to them than that attraction.
Couple hood is having someone that you know and love for the duration of your life. It is someone who you experience you day to day life with. When youre old and grey, you are going to want someone there who “remembers when”, and who knows what you need without you even asking (yes, I believe after a few decades this can happen..)
Family is about so much more. Its about actively caring for those around you and creating the next generation. Its about caring for others out of the resource that is the love shared.
I’m not against attraction- I just think maybe men have a tendency to be attracted to more ephemeral things.
It is very rare in our society for men and women to get to know each other in platonic ways that allow for a real understanding of one another…I think it is rare for men and women to fall in love with each other without it being a little contrived or driven by the intention for sexual/romantic connect.
I don’t know if that is wrong, but I always had a romantic notion that someone would fall in love with me- for me.
Not because of my charms and achievements, but because they knew me and liked me and they cared about me.
I think men becoming detached from their emotions- not allowed to cry, not allowed to fear, not allowed to be weak, also detaches them from those connections that bond people for a lifetime.
Fascinating.
(I totally agree on the detached male emotion stuff, by the way.)
But on this other thing. is it seriously something you’ve been thinking about for a long time? Because… and here I go down the scary gender-divide trail… but….
I have NEVER even heard of a man (even though I’m sure it happens with relative frequency when compared to “never”) having any sort of internal debate about whether he is attracted to women or men.
But it seems there is quite a bit more fluidity on the female side.
Like, you sound as if you’ve legitimately weighed options and are open to either thing.
Don’t feel like you have to spill your inside to me or anyone else here regarding something so personal.
But if you feel comfortable discussing it, I think it’s an incredibly interesting situation which I suspect is much more common than Random Straight Guy (me) might think. But I’m only guessing.
I dont mind talking about it- for most everyone here I am just random internet person, so- I’m not worried about it. And I know people can make comments that aren’t nice, but I’m not going to let that be the deciding factor of who I am or what I think,soo…
I have thought about it off and on since maybe jr. high. But, I know I also consciously didn’t want to be gay.
I have been asking about it to some women I know who are lesbians (and truly solid people), asking if they “just knew” they were, or if there was questioning.
There seems to be a lot of fluidity for women…and you’re right, maybe not so with men.
It is very interesting. If I recall correctly homosexuality in men can be biologically linked while it’s not in women.
I need to go find what I’m talking about, but I think it had something to do with being the 3rd + male child in the family…that sounds hokey, but it had something to do with changes in the mothers hormones.
I think for women (while they still like em “dirty and purty”- courtesy of my lesbian friends lol:).) It’s the relationality over the sexuality that wins.
” If I recall correctly homosexuality in men can be biologically linked while it’s not in women.”
I suppose it is no longer considered true, but I remember the idea that homosexuality, for both men and women, was strongly linked to father issues. I know this is anecdotal, but I used to work with two gay guys and I separately heard both of them express extreme dislike for their fathers. I also know a guy who has struggled with strong homosexual desires all of his life who has told me about his issues with his father.
Personally, I believe that environmental factors like father issues and societal acceptance are much more significant than any hereditary or genetic reasons.
“Father issues” is indeed anectdotal. Could it not be they were gay, therefore had father issues?
Anyway- this is something I am going to argue about.
If you ask a homosexual male, they did not choose to be gay.
Many lesbians say that as well, but not all. Many women have the capacity to love other women.
Maybe it is we are just the more attractive gender to everyone?
In either case I want to respect people for who they are- male or female, straight or gay…
I didn’t expect you would accept that theory. The fact that homosexuals do not think they had a choice about being gay actually fits the theory quite well. But it’s far easier to believe that people’s sexual preferences are genetic.
I think both men and women would generally agree that women are more physically attractive. However, I’m not so sure that women are generally considered more attractive otherwise. I have the strong suspicion that many men wish they had never married, because they now realize that the sexual attractiveness of a given woman was insufficient to overcome her other unattractive aspects. It’s an interesting question.
As to respect of others, I try to be civil with all, but I will not respect (that is, admire them deeply as a result of their abilities, qualities, or achievements) those whose behavior is out of line with what I understand God’s will to be.
“And for men (usually), it is all about sex….what is sexually attractive to them… When the actual in that body may come in 2nd, or 3rd on list of priorities.”
What? I think that sex is the top priority for most men. But what did you mean in the second part?
“I think what I understood was that God got no pleasure or benefit out of me suffering alone, especially if I could be happy and give and receive love with another woman.”
In all of my years as a Christian, I seem to have missed the part where God teaches that two of His greatest desires are that we be happy, and that we should have a partner to give love to and receive love from. As you would probably suppose, I don’t think that is true.
Rickety, I forgot a key word ..it was supposed to read “What men usually care about is all about sex…what is sexually attractive to them …when the actual PERSON in that body may come in 2nd or 3rd.
I realized after I re-read what I wrote that what I was saying could be mis-read. I don’t think God’s greatest concern is for everyone to be happy. But God knows me and MY circumstances, …and I believe what he was saying that if there is a chance that I can have those things that my heart really desires then having it with a woman isn’t going to make him love me any less.
Being in a family, in a loving social group is part of what makes us human.
I haven’t responded back to your last response on expectations. I hope to at the end of the week.
“…and I believe what he was saying ….”
What did God say, and where, about the desires of our hearts? Psalm 37:4?
“Being in a family, in a loving social group is part of what makes us human.”
Please keep in mind that being human is also being naturally selfish and sinful. Our human desires are seldom in line with God’s desires.
God’s plan for the family begins with a man and woman joined in marriage with children as the common natural result. As I understand God’s desire for mankind, it seems quite clear that homosexual behavior is strongly disparaged. I see no evidence that love trumps God’s disapproval of homosexuality.
I am also quite interested in your response in our discussion of boundaries. At least, I think you had planned on doing so.
Hi Rickety.
I do believe there is a divergence of understanding of who God is and what it means to follow him.
That is a lot to go into.
I hurt for you that you see no evidence that love trumps God’s disapproval of homosexuality.
Love trumps everything.
Love trumps judgement.
Worry, fear, anxiety, hate those are not from God.
Sexuality is a very private thing, and one that most people don’t feel like they can separate their identity from.
Making any sort of assumptions or judgments regarding anyone’s sexual orientation is not a discussion I will have.
I can see that you feel very strongly about this. I can respect that.
I will have time to talk about boundaries over the Thanksgiving break.
And, I want to answer your comments about expectations this weekend.
But, I am going to tell you the honest truth out of respect.
I have been reading a lot of hurt and frustration in your words.
I experience that at first in a little retaliatory anger (I want to tell you where you are wrong) , and then as a gigantic, hovering wall of flesh that is impossible to push away or to move.
This is why I have difficulty answering you right away.
Logic and reason nor any discussion at all is not going to make a bit of a difference while you hold on to that hurt and frustration in order to feel justified.
This is something we all do. Holding the “They (or even ‘it’) did me wrong” card makes us feel justified, but it really doesn’t do much in regards to living a decent life.
I am someone who tends to beleive that addressing the emotions, and beliefs behind our logic (because believe me- when it comes down to it they are very, very hard to separate) is just as if not important to our logic and reasoning as the actual facts are.
I.e.- You can see a block of wood and say “it is a weapon” or you can see a block of wood and say “it is for a fire to keep warm, cook and give us light.”
The wood is just wood, how we see the wood (and how we see the world) is what changes.
I cant say this is the best place to really address those things in depth. Though believe me, I want to.
I am just saying this because I do think you come here because you think about this stuff.
If you were really happy and content with it, you would be out fishing or something.
So, let me say I care, and I plan on having continued conversations with you, but it doesn’t do anyone much good to talk about these things if we stubbornly hold on to what we think we already know- especially if what we believe is causing us pain, hurt, anger and frustration.
I hope you have a great day, sincerely.
linds01,
“I do believe there is a divergence of understanding of who God is and what it means to follow him.”
I think that is extreme understatement. 🙂
“Making any sort of assumptions or judgments regarding anyone’s sexual orientation is not a discussion I will have.”
I don’t have any desire to go into that. We know approximately where the other stands. I stated it because I care about others, and I think the reminder has value.
“I have been reading a lot of hurt and frustration in your words.
[…]
Logic and reason nor any discussion at all is not going to make a bit of a difference while you hold on to that hurt and frustration in order to feel justified.”
While I admit to having been hurt greatly in one significant relationship, and often being frustrated with others’ beliefs and behaviors, I do not believe these exist because of a desire to justify my own beliefs. Rather, I think the hurt and frustration exist because, although I have a desire to help others, a desire that may well be greater than I want to admit, I seem to be unable to effect change in others.
I recently did a personality profile (I think you will find this interesting) which gave me a “social” score higher than I would have expected. In this case, “social” is defined as desiring to work with others to help them learn and grow. The score was almost the same as “realistic” (like to provide answers to real-life problems). The highest category (almost 50% greater) was “investigative” (like to search for facts and figure out problems).
My interpretation is that I don’t want others to experience the hurt I have experienced (you recognize my hurt, but, I think, misunderstand it), and I am frustrated primarily because I seem to be unable to accomplish this.
“I cant say this is the best place to really address those things in depth. Though believe me, I want to.”
If you have a great desire to address these things believing you can help me, I think you should reconsider. The odds that you will help me become a better, more content person are slim to none.
“If you were really happy and content with it, you would be out fishing or something.”
I would rather engage here than be out fishing. For me, it is something I enjoy overall, even though it does not have the results I would like.
“So, let me say I care, and I plan on having continued conversations with you, but it doesn’t do anyone much good to talk about these things if we stubbornly hold on to what we think we already know- especially if what we believe is causing us pain, hurt, anger and frustration.”
You might as well realize that, for a number of reasons, I am extremely likely to stubbornly hold on to what I think I already know. As far as I can tell, you are probably in the same boat.
I have no expectation of changing your beliefs. That is not especially frustrating as you, contrary to many I disagree with, seem to be willing and able to actually discuss issues. I appreciate that greatly. It contrasts with those like the commenters, previously active here, who have retreated into their own private place.
I will finish by stating that I do not believe my beliefs are causing me pain, hurt, anger, and frustration.
Rickety- I wrote a response before reading this one. I hope you read it. 🙂
I do just want to clarify that when I was talking about your beliefs I was talking about your beliefs about women and relationships, not necessarily religious beliefs. however, the response I wrote this am was an explanation of why I believe what I believe in a religious sense. . – Just for clarity and understanding.
god of the bible wants homosexuals put to death. dont agreen with it. but it is pretty obvious.
Rickety,
I hope I didn’t come across as being harsh or rude in my last comment.
I appreciate honesty that way, from people I know are care about me. I realize it may not be received that way by everyone, but it truly was meant from a good place.
Ok, so on God, sexuality and the current Christian culture. Man- I cannot tell you how poorly I equipped I feel to try to explain this, but I will try…
You have mentioned a few times that mans’ nature is sinful, and so we cant really trust our own impulses and instincts to be right with the God. And, our measure to know what is right and wrong is found in the bible? Please let me know if that is correct.
Yes and no. We do have a fallen nature. We have inherited death, and we certainly have the capacity to turn away from God.
But I do not think God made an evil creation. He said he made man, and what he was good.
Even more than that, I believe sin is obvious and apparent.
I don’t think God is trying to play a hide and seek game with what he want for us (Life) and what will harm us. (death).
Do you think he made us, just to test us?
Just to satisfy some egotistical need and exercise his power and control?
Like he is this egotistical super being who made us so he can be filled by our need of him?
I think we know the difference between right and wrong. In fact we learned the difference between right and wrong in the garden, when we ate from the tree of Good and Evil..
We have to have to know we are sinning in order to have the choice to sin, in order to be judged for the sin, no?
And to back up my point Romans 1: 19 “since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
IE- we know what is good, and we know what is not good.
That doesn’t mean we are always right.
Here is where I think we diverge: I cant say without a shadow of a doubt that homosexual love is sinful ,that is, it leads to death…
and I do know there is a proverb that that says “there is a way that appears to be right, but leads to death” …we can definitely twist things.
But, what if what lead to death was holding up all the rules and checking all the religious boxes and missing who Jesus really was?
Sometimes we do things accidentally that we are completely blind to. Some people choose bad habits over and over again (I’m looking in the mirror over here) because they are easy to choose.
Everyone sins everyday.
And, the judgement has already been passed down. It was Christ on the cross.
So, we know “the list” from Romans 1, right? The one that follows the verses about women giving over natural desires for unnatural ones and men being consumed with lust for each other.
Romans 1:28 “Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the
knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what
ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness,
evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice.
They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they
invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they have no understanding,
no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that
those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very
things but also approve of those who practice them. ”
Sounds pretty black and white, doesn’t it?
But, then Paul immediately launches in, in Romans Chapter 2:1 with this…
“You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at
whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who
pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against
those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere human being,
pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape
God’s judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness,
forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you
to repentance?”
Do you get what he was saying with these verses?
I do want to note that the Paul was talking about particular worship practices in the Roman culture. It was more about the who are you worshipping? than it was about homosexualilty- it just happened that homosexual prostitution and worship via sexual ecstasy were a thing at that time.
I don’t believe in cheap grace, or that Love has no backbone or feels good all the time. I don’t believe God just wants us to feel cozy and happy and not have to worry about anything.
In fact, my life verse is Hebrews 12:12 “Strengthen your weak knees and feeble arms…so that rather than be lame, you will be healed.” That entire chapter is about Gods discipline.
Note, that does NOT mean punishment.
If I know God as ANYTHING- it is as a father who disciplines me…for my own healing.
But, before I knew him as father, I knew him as the lover of my soul.
I would say me being a Christian is a miracle, and that what he poured into me was love I never knew existed.
I know he loves. I know he IS love, and that his entire being is made up of that.
And that love isn’t conditional.
It doesn’t rely on me being right or wrong, or hurting and in pain, or doing something I know is sinful. He still loves me- always will.
I think it is a wrong conclusion to assume that giving love out freely will make people go run in the streets naked, and take advantage of every last sinful lust imaginable.
I think love given freely makes you kind of want to do the things that bring wholeness and life.
You mentioned psalms 37:4 “Delight in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart.”
You don’t know me, nor my life and my history. I do delight in the Lord. Even when he doesn’t give me the desires of my heart.
I am being very honest about myself and about my life, and I hope you take it as such, and not as ammunition against me.
I have earnestly prayed for a family for many years. There was hope the first few years, then anger the next few, then some despondency and then a realization…
There is a lot said in the Christian culture that makes it seem like God is in complete control and He is the one to “move all the chess pieces” as a friend of mine would say it.
We are told that God will somehow bring your desires to fruition, and all you have to do is sit still and wait. We are taught to be passive, not trust our own internal nudges and being.
I think we have mis-judged the importance of us being the movers and shakers in this world.
Many people get caught in a paralytic state because they don’t know if God is telling them to do this or that. They want a sign from God, and assurance that it will bring everything they want and hope for.
That is all based on fear. And, not a holy fear of God, either- but a fear that if you don’t do the right things you wont get what you want. That is the antithesis of trust.
Another friend of mine would say “it doesn’t matter what direction you move, its just important that you do- He will help you along the way.”
Thomas Merton puts it like this “God’s will for us in not only that we should be the persons He means us to be, but that we should share in His work of creation and help Him to make us into the persons He means us to be. Always, in all things, God’s will for me is that I should shape my own destiny, work out my own salvation, forge my own eternal happiness, in the way He has planned for me.”
So, I say this to say that me being open to the possibility of a same sex relationship, and Glennon’s choice of a same sex relationship of course isn’t God’s destiny for us. (Because God’s destiny for us is ultimately himself) But, it certainly can be a way that he continues to guide us and direct us and mold us and grow us.
I want to write a few more quotes from Merton because he is so good, and rich and I think it applies..
” The will of the Lord is not a static center drawing our souls blindly toward itself. It is
a creative power, working everywhere, giving life and being and direction to all
things, and above all forming and creating, in the midst of the old creation, a whole
new world which is called the Kingdom of God. ”
“So let me clearly realize first of all that what God wants of me is myself. That means
to say that his will for me points to one thing: the realization, the discovery, and the
fulfillment of my self, my true self, in Christ. And that is why the will of God manifests
itself in the demands that I sacrifice myself. Why? Because in order to find my true
self in Christ, I must go beyond the limits of my own narrow egoism. In order to save
my life, I must lose it. For my life in God is and can only be a life of unselfish charity.”
That’s all for now…Thanks 🙂
Just a side note here…
For the record, while I get Glennon’s blog posts in my FB news feed, I don’t know or follow Elizabeth Gilbert at all…I just want to make that clear lest anyone clump this into some social movement. I was asking questions unbeknownst to anything going on in those peoples worlds.
And, asking questions doesn’t mean I am gay, either. (The fact that I call it gay sounds queer to my lesbian friends.. : ) …)
If nothing else I think it is time that Churches really examined why we treat homosexuality different from other sins (if it is in fact a sin), and realize how that exclusion really affects people who are genuinely part of the body.
It would also be a good question to ask why we are so afraid of making mistakes when God has already given forgiveness, and making mistakes (like admitting when you are wrong) can bring you closer to knowing the right answer.
I don’t think the point of a Christian walk is so much to walk in a straight line, as it is to walk together and to lift each other up as we stumble.
I know you wrote this almost a month ago but I just wanted to affirm and slightly expound on something you said. “But, what if what lead to death was holding up all the rules and checking all the religious boxes and missing who Jesus really was?” This is very much in line with Paul’s words about law versus grace. Death comes *because of* the law. Living under the law (trying to fulfill criteria for righteousness), only brings death. To paraphrase, ‘If we are saved by grace, should we then go back to the law?’ We can’t, because by trying to live by rules and trying to meet the standard of “righteousness”, we submit ourselves to the law again, and come back under it’s judgment. Only by faith- in grace and the righteousness of one man and his sacrifice- are we free of the law (of death). In *tying* to *be* righteous we bring judgment on ourselves, but in beholding Christ we become more like him, and as we live in grace and have *faith* in grace and his righteousness (not our own), we naturally bear the fruit of righteousness and the Spirit.
Or so says Hebrews and Romans.
Thanks for your open comment. It really touched me.
Thank you, Ashley I really appreciate the affirmation 🙂 . …And, its totally a coincidence that I am responding back 1 month after your response haha! :).
Something to remember is that lesbians, especially once past their 20’s, rarely have sex. All surveys show this. They have much less sex than either heterosexual partners, or gay male partners. In fact, for the majority of lesbian couples, once they’ve been living together for some time the sex stops pretty much completely. There’s even a name for this phenomenon – “lesbian bed death”.
These facts would help explain why women may be more “fluid” – you don’t have to have a lot of physical attraction to a person you won’t be having sex with. Basically, they just end up being close girlfriends with a lot of emotional intimacy who vacation together…and sit on the couch together eating Ben & Jerry’s while watching Lifetime or Law & Order SVU.
Are you a lesbian? How do you know this? Offended by woman having sex with each other?
Me too, been having sex with a woman for ten years, this year, silly Jeff
When I was in college, one of the guys in one of my classes asked to sit with me at lunch, and we kept hanging out more and more after that. Almost half way through the semester, he told me he liked me. I didn’t feel the same way at the time, but said we can still be friends. We still hung out a lot after that, even though he clearly still had feelings for me. After a while, I started to like him back(at the end of the next semester). I told him I liked him, but that I wasn’t ready to date right now. But if he was alright with waiting, we could continue being friends for the next year or two and then maybe start dating after that, and he said yes. We’ve been dating for nearly two years now and have a pretty good relationship, and I think all the waiting and period of friendship for us has been a good thing.
I think with guys you just have the patience to find the right one, and be willing to be single if you cannot. A relationship with any human being has a strong chance of being disappointing, even if it’s with another girl. One of the best things anyone can do in life is learn to be truly happy and content by themselves.
When dating a guy, it’s best to be honest with what one wants from the relationship while still being fair. If a guy confesses to you after only a month of knowing you, and you say you want to be friends only, and he decides to avoid you from now on because of that? Good riddance. But if he still wants to be around you, even if only as a friend, because he cares about you and values you regardless of your relationship with him, or if he is willing to spend a few years being your platonic friend before you’re willing to consider dating him…that might just mean the guy is worth it.
As always thanks Matt for sharing, I have actually taken a lot of what you have talked about and put it into play into my relationship with my wife. Our relationship is still recovering as I would put it, but we are closer and really talking and in turn I must say I am much happier now than I was before in our relationship. Keep up the good work and sharing with us working on being reformed crappy husbands.
Really appreciate the comment and you sharing this here.
I don’t know your story (and I should), but I know that as a trained soldier, you likely possess and demonstrate awesome and important qualities like strength, and personal discipline, and honor, and loyalty, and fortitude in ways that many of us do not.
Of course, you probably also deal with stresses and internal hardships that many of us don’t or can’t understand.
I think (but can’t possibly know) that the stresses on your marriage (and the relationships of other men and women in uniform) have some unique qualities I probably never get around to writing about here.
I think about that a lot. Also about marriages affected by addiction problems. The challenges unique to military families, and the challenges unique to relationships and households affected by addiction deserve more conversation around here.
I’m just not the guy to provide it, which is why this place is going to be a lot better once it’s a multi-author site instead of just me.
Thank you again for taking time out of your life to read things here, and for contributing to the conversation.
Great article Matt. Well articulated as always – and yes – spot on !!!
As for the conversation on “to bi or not to bi, I am a female who is strictly attracted to men. Do I want to get married again? Probably not. Even women I know who are in their seventies have advised me not to do it again. They said they definitely wouldn’t.
I think women are looking for a partner and men are looking for a mother or maid. I have two children. I don’t need another one.
Older women in their seventies DEFINITELY shouldn’t remarry. Since the trend of women outliving men is so pronounced, she’s likely to have only a couple good years with him…and then end up his full-time caregiver/nurse. Which is one thing if it’s for the man you were married to all your life, had a family with, etc. – but quite another thing for a man you married for companionship so late in life.
Your situation is different Maddy. You would need to find a man who would be a good step-dad to your kids. AND have chemistry and a connection with you. That is certainly a tall order.
Hopefully, your kids’ dad is around enough that they can at least have that male influence and role-model in their lives. Boys need it in order to learn how to grow into a man, and girls need it to understand how to relate to the opposite sex and have good relationships.
All the best!
Just to clarify Jeff, the older woman in her seventies meant that if she was my age, she wouldn’t do it again.
As for my boys father, he needs to learn how to be a man himself before he can teach our children.
Like you always say Jeff, choosing the right partner is the most important choice you can make. That’s one thing we agree on.
Even if only a few years left… Heck even months or days… Who are we to decide what will or will not make people happy?
Even if the marriage were to legally assign estate and funds to someone they love and hold dear. There are marriages which hold no sex in play but fulfill the desires/needs of the two people… And… Saying for a woman in her seventies not to remarry because she will only have a few good years… That is to say that we would assume (yes?) that the man is same age or older.
My grandmother is married to a man 15 years her junior. Whether or not I find it distasteful is none of other people’s business as long as they are happy.
Also, people terminally ill marry with just months or days left in the hospital.
Just adding that… But I would agree, optimally but sadly perhaps seeming is not the case, we do not have good male role models for children in the familial setting.
Grr phone typing. Did not mean to hit send yet…
I am not saying it is strictly just men…
But just wanted to take those factors into account. So long as both parties have an understanding and agreement upon their marriage then what is the harm?
Me either, that 70 y/o is right
You nailed it, Matt. The reason I left my last relationship (I dated him for two years) are the points you listed, all four of them.
Thank you.
I take little joy in understanding this. When you hear the story enough times, you finally learn to see it for what it is.
This is happening to too many people.
Ditto, annemarie
“I think women, with increasing frequency, are choosing romantic relationships with other women over men because of how poorly men perform the relationship functions women value most.”
I expect most of these women will be more disappointed in the long run with this choice than being with a man. The primary reason is the inherent selfishness responsible for the behavior. Apparently, the most important factor in the success of a romantic relationship is performing the functions that “women value most”. With that attitude, it’s no surprise that man-woman relationships often fail.
“I believe this trend will continue until men collectively commit to not doing all of the Shitty Husband things most of us (accidentally!) do, OR reject relationships with women, forsake family life, and go all-in on A.I. Ex Machina-like sexbots or whatever.”
Somehow, I don’t think the latter option is going to motivate women toward man-woman relationships, although I rather expect the men who choose that path will have better lives than most men currently. It would be far better than living with the women doing all the Shitty Wife things they do.
Bottom line: If this is truly a growing trend, I think there will only ever be a small number of men who will be motivated by it to change to be what women think they want. What man wants a woman who would rather be with another woman than with a man? I strongly believe that this would be the end of the world as we know it, and the new world would be far worse than most would imagine.
While I know that your intentions are 100% good in this post (and I completely agree with your four points), I think it’s kind of offensive to suggest that women choose to become bisexual/lesbian purely because they’ve had no luck finding decent men. It implies that it’s a sad alternative that women are forced into because men are “failing” to do their job. As if it’s men’s “fault” that all these women are becoming lesbians.. like it’s a crisis or something that needs to be stopped!
People don’t just wake up one day and “decide” to be gay. People might joke about giving up on men and becoming a lesbian but noone chooses their sexuality. Sexuality is a spectrum, gender is a spectrum. And while people on either end feel fairly firm about their preferences (and probably also people who fit right in the centre), I would argue that all those people who fall somewhere inbetween, fall in love with a person, not a gender. Someone whose values and interests and lifestyle align with theirs. Sometimes that will be man, sometimes that will be a woman. And frankly, I don’t think it requires any more of a deeper analysis than that.
Certainly, I applaud your encouragement of men to be more aware of their flaws and mistakes in relationships so to be better partners, but please don’t be so self-absorbed to think that women only fall in love with other women, simply because men didn’t do their job properly.
I certainly didn’t intend for that to be the takeaway.
I intended the takeaway to be for men to understand there are things they don’t think of as important that their wives and girlfriends DO think is important. And that relationship success is predicated on, at minimum, a general awareness of these things.
I’ve written the same blog post about 200 times, simply using different examples and stories to illustrate it.
Glennon’s announcement seemed as good a time as any to present this example.
I want straight men who are accidentally assholes and shitty husbands to realize they are accidentally being assholes and shitty husbands, because I believe most will operate differently once they’re armed with proper information and tools.
That is something I think I understand very well, and know a lot about.
Everything else in Life is comprised of things I don’t think I know much about, and I try really hard to say so, and feel like I did about three or four times in this post.
I don’t really KNOW anything, nor pretend to. I just try to tell stories I believe might have helped the me of 5-7 years ago be less of an asshole.
You won’t find any writing from me suggesting anyone falls in love with anyone for any particular reason.
But I do observe there to be more women on the other side of heterosexual relationships choosing to date or marry women rather than men, or at least we HEAR about it more now.
I in no way am suggesting that most or all women enter same-sex relationships because men fail.
I am suggesting that men might learn something valuable from the women who do defect to same-sex relationships because of certain common male behaviors which frequently lead to divorce.
I just want people to stop divorcing so much! Given that everyone gets married on purpose, it doesn’t seem like too much to ask for. 🙂
“…, I think it’s kind of offensive to suggest that women choose to become bisexual/lesbian purely because they’ve had no luck finding decent men. It implies that it’s a sad alternative that women are forced into because men are “failing” to do their job.”
You do imply that women are choosing lesbian relationships because of men’s failure to be good partners. See this (emphasis mine):
“I think women, with increasing frequency, are choosing romantic relationships with other women over men because of how poorly men perform the relationship functions women value most.”
However, lehcar is responsible for being offended as I fail to see that you implied this was a “sad alternative”.
“… because I believe most will operate differently once they’re armed with proper information and tools.”
I continue to be amazed that you believe this.
“I just want people to stop divorcing so much!”
They will. I think it is already true. But it’s not because of better or smarter behavior. It’s because they are living together instead of getting married. So, it’s not really what you want. I get that.
But, more importantly, I have my doubts that this blog is impacting the behavior of more than a handful of men in regard to their marriages. I think you should keep that in mind as you consider your path forward. I know what I expect of the multi-author concept you seem to have chosen.
I couldn’t agree more. Well said !!
Perfect. Couldn’t agree more. Thanks for articulating what I couldn’t.
I found this interesting and relatable: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dating-and-mating/201611/simple-truths-about-sexual-attraction
It’s certainly interesting and relatable. Goodness.
My least-favorite part is the final paragraph which 100% supports the Red Pill and MGTOW position that many women will pursue partnerships with wealthy, safe (if less attractive to them) men; and over time as inevitable monotony and marriage problems set in, engage in short-term purely physical sexual relationships with guys they are attracted to in more primative ways.
So long as that stereotype (potentially rooted in some uncomfortable truth) persists, MANY men will reject the concepts we discuss here.
I preach selflessness to serve the marriage and family. But that selfless service is predicated on the idea of the marriage being strong as a result.
If many men believe women will choose other guys over them no matter how much they give and sacrifice… or rather God forbid, if there’s some truth to the idea that they will, then broken things may never unbreak.
Which is tragic.
“…..many women will pursue partnerships with wealthy, safe (if less attractive to them) men; and over time as inevitable monotony and marriage problems set in, engage in short-term purely physical sexual relationships with guys they are attracted to in more primative ways.”
Matt, this is true in the sense that both men and women do it. We chose our partners based on their marriage potential, their reliability, loyalty, etc. Those things are not really attractive, not for men or women. The red pills foolishly carry on about alleged hypergamy, but feminists have long been speaking about the madonna/whore complex placed on women. It’s the same thing they’re observing.
Men desire wives, chaste, pure, submissive, but they often visit prostitutes and consume porn, indicating that what they actually find sexually attractive is not exactly the Madonna archetype. Women are very similar, we need sensitive, reliable, loyal husband material, but that’s so…. sexually boring?
Your post is fabulous of course, but I disagree with the premise that women go seeking other women because men don’t provide the things we need. The more sensitive, the more feminine a man becomes the less attractive he is.
IB: “Men desire wives, chaste, pure, submissive, but they often visit prostitutes and consume porn, indicating that what they actually find sexually attractive is not exactly the Madonna archetype. Women are very similar, we need sensitive, reliable, loyal husband material, but that’s so…. sexually boring”
There’s truth there. Yet the irony is, when I shared in a previous thread an example of how I keep things from being “sexually boring” with my wife, I had my head chopped off! I was called every name from caveman to rapist. Luckily, I have enough experience with women to ignore that stuff. I know what women (and obviously my wife in particular) respond to. But the more inexperienced male readers are once again given the (wrong) impression that what gives women the tingles is the sensitive, politically correct, feminist nice guy. Oh boy, is that going to lead to problems!
Sometimes a woman just needs to be thrown onto the bed and pounded into the mattress. She needs to experience the power of male sexuality, dominating and overwhelming her, while she lets go and surrenders to it. For many more women than you think, she craves this (at least some of the time). And of course, she wants it to be with a male partner she trusts implicitly – ideally, her husband. The point is, it make’s her feel like a woman. And what female doesn’t love that?
P.S. The reason why men want to marry chaste, pure wives…even though they are attracted to femme fatales and bad girls…is because with a wife, they are choosing who will be having and raising their children.
IB: “The more sensitive, the more feminine a man becomes the less attractive he is.”
You summed up quite nicely in one sentence what I was trying to say. Well done.
“My least-favorite part is the final paragraph ….
So long as that stereotype (potentially rooted in some uncomfortable truth) persists, MANY men will reject the concepts we discuss here.”
Your response (“least favorite” and “uncomfortable truth”) reminds me of the attitude of the anti-Trump camp. In other words, it may be the truth, but I don’t like it, so I’m going to complain. Perhaps it would be worthwhile contemplating what is really truth.
“I preach selflessness to serve the marriage and family. But that selfless service is predicated on the idea of the marriage being strong as a result.”
I agree that selflessness is important for a marriage. Unfortunately, I have my doubts that it exists to any great degree for both men and women.
“If many men believe women will choose other guys over them no matter how much they give and sacrifice… or rather God forbid, if there’s some truth to the idea that they will, then broken things may never unbreak.”
I don’t think this is really a big problem in marriage, but I think it is significant in the behavior of women before marriage, in their dating choices, their sexual behavior, their choice of spouse, and the timing of these actions. The impact is great, and I believe it is overwhelmingly detrimental to society and to both the institution of marriage and individual marriages.
Matt: “My least-favorite part is the final paragraph which 100% supports the Red Pill and MGTOW position that many women will pursue partnerships with wealthy, safe (if less attractive to them) men; and over time as inevitable monotony and marriage problems set in, engage in short-term purely physical sexual relationships with guys they are attracted to in more primative ways”
This is often succinctly referred to as “Alpha F@cks, Beta Bucks”.
Exactly.
And I even get it. But I feel like the Red Pill crowd has used it as an excuse to avoid any uncomfortable self-reflection and growth.
I don’t like when people don’t accept responsibility for making their own lives better. It’s a real problem up and down the spectrum of human-related topics.
One article in Psychology Today does not a Truth make, but if men will forever be victims THAT dynamic, then I can’t in good conscience look them in the eye and ask them to do many of the things I ask them to do.
I ask people to do things because I believe doing so will have tangible, positive effects on their lives.
If someone spends years, possibly decades, sacrificing selflessly only to ultimately suffer from his partner choosing sexual gratification from someone else from a cheap and “meaningless” encounter, then I would stand in appalled outrage with them.
“So long as that stereotype (potentially rooted in some uncomfortable truth) persists, MANY men will reject the concepts we discuss here.”
” But I feel like the Red Pill crowd has used it as an excuse to avoid any uncomfortable self-reflection and growth.”
Restating my earlier thought, I suggest that the “uncomfortable truth” could lead to “self-reflection and growth”.
Matt,
I think I know what you’re trying to say. You’re right that people should be taking responsibility for their actions.
But I think what Red Pillers are trying to do is swing the pendulum back to a median position. You see, many young men, esp in the UMC, have been raised to put women on a pedestal. They are taught that women are always sweet and loving and hard-wired to respond positively to well-educated nice guys who treat them with respect.
When these guys see some of the reality of female sexual desire…say, girls giving it up for Harley McBadboy or Buddy Rockbanddrummer, who treat them like garbage…their whole worldview is exploded. They don’t know what to do, they feel they’ve been lied to all their life (and you can see why).
Do some guys then go too far the other way, in their anger and bitterness? Sure, that’s probably true. I’ve been slammed on Red Pill sites for daring to defend the institution of marriage and family, and pointing out its many benefits (provided you don’t marry the wrong kind of girl). Maybe these guys chill out later, maybe they don’t. Who knows.
It is what it is. There’s a lot of bitterness on both sides. Casualties in the war of the sexes, I suppose.
I’m going to start out by sowing some hate and discontent. People are not “gay” or “straight”. They CHOOSE TO BEHAVE in a “gay” or “straight” manner. So Ellen Degenerate decided she was a lesbian and took Ann Heche as her lover? Fine. Four years later, Ann Heche married a man, had a child, a divorce, and another male lover. She CHANGED HER MIND. Glennon Doyle Melton was married to a man, wrote a book on how to be a “Love Warrior”, then separated and moved in with a woman. Melton was not somehow “trapped” by the Patriarchy and repressed and forced to be heterosexual and finally escaped; no stray cosmic ray somehow flipped her internal gay/straight bit in her brain. She CHANGED HER MIND. I don’t know why, but it doesn’t really matter, because it’s a valid choice.
I have two male friends who were married, had had children, got divorced and were raped by the court system. Sick and tired of their women’s crap, they CHOSE TO get involved together, and are now the picture of the homosexual “gay” couple. They CHANGED THEIR MINDS. A CONSCIOUS decision.
People are not “born” gay or straight. It’s a choice, a preference, and there’s nothing wrong with either choice.
“Women Know What Women Want?” I don’t THINK so; without some introspection, NONE of us, male or female, know what we want.
“And given how much I am bombarded with stories of unhappy wives in total agony from how their husbands make them feel, and how much Google traffic this blog gets from women searching for answers to things like “Why doesn’t my husband love me?” or “Why doesn’t my husband care about my feelings?,” it makes a lot of sense to me.”
Flip the genders and run the query again; I’ll bet that there are even MORE questions from husbands about why their wives don’t love them any more. I’ve BEEN in that kind of relationship, where my “wife” decided that my only role in our marriage was to do dishes, change diapers, and pay the bills.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/new/
“1. To Feel Seen and Heard” I listened to her, and did everything she SAID she desired. Turns out that what she SAID she wanted wasn’t what she REALLY wanted. I was never able to read her mind, and that, like everything else, was all my fault.
“2. To Feel Safe” I supported her, paid her way through college, supported her even as I was working my OWN way through college. I took care of our children as she went to work. My paycheck was for the family; her paycheck was HER money.
“3. To Feel Sexually Desired” Yeah, THAT was the difficulty; I desired my wife, and she desired me to leave her alone. For three years.
“4. To Feel Appreciated” Back in the days of cloth diapers, I was the one who rinsed the poopy diapers in the toilet. I was the guy who filled and cleaned and emptied the diaper pail. I was the guy who washed, and dried, and folded the diapers. Whenever I was home, I changed more diapers than she did. I changed the bed linens, and washed the floors, and did the dishes. But whatever I did, it was NEVER enough, and she was constantly angry. But I was supposed to “just know!” what she was angry about, and as I’ve already admitted, I was never able to read her mind. THAT was my terrible flaw.
Every marriage is different, and every failed marriage fails in its own way. Every man is different; every woman is different. We all want different things. I don’t think you are justified in making these sweeping generalizations.
Leaving the sexuality issue aside, your post reminds me that it’s not just about men being shitty husbands – women can be shitty wives too. I think it comes down to both partners knowing what they want, being open and honest about it, working together for each other and the family they create and communicating effectively around all of the above.
After 15 years of failing at the above on both sides a lot, emotions betrayals, a 6 month separation neither oof us wanted and a lot of insight on both sides and me learning that saying what I really need and want isn’t a weakness and getting the skills to do it – I think we’re finally on a better track and having BOTH our needs met.
STH: “Leaving the sexuality issue aside, your post reminds me that it’s not just about men being shitty husbands – women can be shitty wives too”
Certainly true. But my input here (which I’ve said before) is that young people should use great caution in choosing a mate. Know what to look for, know what your deal-breakers are, know to recognize any signs of mental problems or instability, etc.
Ninety percent of your happiness or misery in life will flow from this one decision. Choose wisely.
Absolutely- choose wisely and be a grown up when you do it. I thought were – learned differently and we’ve grown up a lot. And we’ve chosen to keep at it when giving up and in would have been easier.
Well, Ken. While we draw many of the same conclusions, and both seem willing to admit uncertainty, you strike me as being much more certain about them.
RE: whether being gay is a choice or a predisposition
There are clear examples of both.
I’ve known, read and heard about people who — without knowing how to label it — report feeling same-sex attraction from the word go.
I’ve known people who have married someone of the opposite sex to hide that they were gay for fear of rejection from their families or church communities.
And then I’ve known and heard of those you describe, who make a deliberate choice to be in a same-sex relationship for whatever their reasons.
There is a clear distinction to me between the person who self-idenifies as gay from their earliest memories, and “straight” people attracted to, and married to opposite-sex partners who later deliberately choose same-sex relationships.
People’s behavior is ALWAYS a choice. People’s sexual attraction seems to exist on a wide, diverse spectrum.
I ALWAYS make sweeping generalizations, Ken. That’s why I often include little notes and caveats acknowledging them.
If you know an efficient or practical way to write about relationships in such a way that is relevant to MANY people without also making some generalizations, I encourage you to try. People will like it.
I make sweeping generalizations WHEN I’m writing about relationship things that apply to a huge number of people. I believe my sweeping generalizations are generally true for most people.
Just because you have two male friends who chose to be together following marriages to women in no way makes that a common occurrence.
With greater frequency that can be demonstrated and corroborated simply by looking around and asking the right questions, women with MUCH greater frequency than men, are choosing same-sex relationships following the failure of opposite-sex ones.
There could certainly be a bunch of secret choose-to-be-gay situations out there with men. But the anecdotal, visual and psych-study statistical data support my position fairly well.
Lastly, the generalizations are a side note.
This is about men (not all men, Ken; but just the ones who haven’t had the depth-of-thought epiphany yet) learning a self-improvement lesson which will make their lives infinitely better.
When your relationships are shitty, life gets hard.
Things we discuss here improve relationships, which in turn, can make a person’s life better along with the rest of their family.
I’m sorry your marriage ended for all of the same reasons mine did.
Most people’s do.
I’m trying to understand how I could have avoided it deteriorating in the first place, and frankly, believe I’m onto something.
It’s more than okay that you disagree. Because I don’t pretend I know everything.
I’ll be frank – I’m a grownup professional woman who gets paid large to advise and help people. And apparently I’m good at it. Great shock to discover I had a shitty marriage. Your insights into what YOU didn’t get in your marriage are helping me a lot with revamping my personal relationship style. And I’m seeing changes – positive ones. Your thoughts may not always apply to all but there are some real root causes and grains of truth that DO apply to many – it’s how we need to implement them in our lives that will be different for all.
Your blog makes ME think and act differently and as a result I see more transformation than I have in two really difficult years of counselling and separation and strife. Keep pushing buttons and making us ALL think differently.
Ps – I read your stuff, not my husband. But I do share the odd quote as it explains in a language better than mine sometimes.
“This is about men (not all men, Ken; but just the ones who haven’t had the depth-of-thought epiphany yet) learning a self-improvement lesson which will make their lives infinitely better.”
Based on that definition, it is, for all intents and purposes, all men.
“RE: whether being gay is a choice or a predisposition
There are clear examples of both.”
I’ll grant you that I have always been fond of the color blue, and that I have ALWAYS hated brussels sprouts. Liking blue is definitely not an inherited trait; there are some suggestions that disliking brussels sprouts _is_.
Just as I have always liked blue, I have always liked girls. It’s a preference. For the men who have always liked the color green or preferred boys to girls, that too is a preference. I’ve heard suggestions that there is something innate that “causes” homosexuality, but no mechanism for this has ever been proposed. For the benighted societies where there are penalties for homosexual conduct, it makes perfect sense to be somewhat secretive about it. For example, my homeowners association will penalize me if I paint my house blue; it has to be tan or “earth tones”. So even though I would prefer to paint it sky-blue, I have a goldish-tan colored house.
So then you are saying that you could just as easily have a preference for boys? Why did you choose girls and not boys?
I couldn’t disagree more with your comment. Being gay is not a choice.
E.g Ellen D. has always admitted she was gay. People may try to hide it to be socially accepted but deep down they know. I would consider women who flip flop between men and women to be either bi-sexual or just plain confused. I adore my gay friends and think they should be treated with respect just like every other human being.
As for all the work you did, I feel your pain. I’ve also learned as I study my own anger is that anger is based on fear. I was the breadwinner and after ten years and other problems, I gave up. Everyone has a breaking point. I continue to work on owning my stuff.
As they say, there’s always his side, her side and the truth, but damn it hurts. Good luck.
Against my better judgement…:)
Ken,
I really dont want to get into an argument regarding other peoples sexuality, because it is theirs, not ours, and for them to know- not us.
But, I did just want to bring up that 1.) Men COULD make the choice to be gay, sure. However, most homosexuals experience their first same sex attraction at the same time heterosexuals start to experience their opposite sex attractions.
That is, sometime during adolescence. Think back and remember how your sex drive was back then. Random, uncontrollable, unrelenting?
Just like heterosexuals, homosexuals are sort of slave to that drive.
They just experience the drive. It isnt a conscious choice.
But, I will concede that there is a spectrum in sexuality, and maybe I shouldnt have put males in the box of “either/or”..
But, I would still stay for the majority of men, there isnt much of a question- they know.
And most men wouldnt even consider a homosexual relationship even after such experiences that your friends had.
So, I guess its not impossible, but really, really rare for that to happen.
But over and above all- It isnt right for us to say homosexuality is chosen or not chosen in any absolute way.
Just because your friends chose that doesnt mean that is the experience of other people.
So- arguing this as a black and white issue, as if we know ANYTHING about it, seems silly and a little disrespectful.
With that, I will have to officially bow out.
Thank you for your perspective, though. : )
Hello good people,
I must agree with you on this Lindsey, and disagree with you Ken.
Of course, whatever we choose to *do* sexually is a choice. But the drive, which gender(s) you are attracted to? I have no doubt some can choose to be attracted or to grow an attraction to people of either gender. But for some, I think it isn’t a choice. They are just romantically/sexually attracted to men or women, period (even if they choose actions that go against that). At least, that’s what I hear people say is true for them. And I don’t think it’s fair (or intellectually honest) of any of us to presume to know what is or isn’t a choice to feel inside for someone else.
A few years ago I was in the car listening to a radio show which featured a couple of men discussing homosexuality as a “choice”. I reached for the damn dead cell phone, screaming “if homosexuality is a choice, every woman over 35 would choose to be lesbian!” For all the reasons you list. In an exercise class a bunch of us were bitching about our husbands. One woman remarked that we all seemed to have such fraught relationships, whereupon in unison we cried out (good natured banter, we knew each other well) “Shut up, Name, you are a lesbian!” (and thus don’t know what we are talking about)
I had a political argument with a good male friend the other day. We have never had a problem discussing things, and often engage in spirited but civil discussion. But now with our new President Elect, things got a little more heated. This time,I noted something I note at home with my husband. This friend uses the same techniques my husband does. When I get close to illustrating a larger and extremely important point via a smaller example, they both do one of these things: 1. deflect 2 .compare to a related person that is not part of the discussion 3. mea culpa, but in mockery 4. ask what I want them to say 5. put down anyone who disagrees with them while acting like they are not doing that 6. lecture me on a related subject that is logical but misses the point of the discussion.
Matt, you asked where to go now. Go to figuring out not only what NOT to do to have a decent marriage, but what to do instead. I find that husband doesn’t think about, plan, make a decision about what to do, so he always goes to the default reaction. Which is a disaster. He knows it but he doesn’t do anything about it except apologize, which long ago became meaningless in the absence of action to solve things.
This is very interesting Shannon.
Would you mind sharing some more of the discussion you had with your friend? What larger point were you close to illustrating via what smaller example, and how did your friend deflect/compare to a related person that is not part of the discussion etc?
Your choice of course. 🙂
Shannon,
You mention how a bunch of you women were bitching about your husbands. Unfortunately, this is all too common. A sort of herd mentality takes over and everyone tries to one-up the other.
Being a man, I don’t see it as much. But my wife sure does. She’s flat-out told me how disgusted she gets constantly hearing other women bitch about their husbands. “And their husbands are good guys!”, she’ll say to me in amazement.
She also says she feels like it puts her in an awkward position. Because it’s like she’s expected to join in the bitching, go on about her husband’s shortcomings, etc. And she tells me, “But I feel like if I tell them the truth – that I’m very happily married, in love with my husband, and have no complaints about him – then they’ll look at me like I’m a snob. Like I’m trying to say I’m better than them. But I’m not about to badmouth my husband like they do. So I usually say nothing.”
It’s gotten so bad with some individual women, who can’t meet for a friendly girls’ lunch without constantly complaining about their hubs, that my wife has basically ended friendships with them. And I support her 100% on this. I told her, “why bring that kind of negativity into your life? Why serve as an emotional tampon for someone who’s not only so bitter about her own spouse…but also so rude as to spend the whole lunch dumping her toxic negative energy all over you?” There’s just no reason to put up with that.
If you’re generally a happy person, it seems best to try to spend your time with similar people. Life’s too short, ya know?
Sorry for rambling. Just some food for thought.
I think it is way too soon to say this is happening any more often than it has in the past.
But, I have a unique viewpoint because both of my parents are in long term relationships with people who’s first marriages ended with their spouse coming out as homosexual.
Yup, my stepmom’s first marriage ended when her husband came out as gay. And my dad has been married to her for 30 years. We aren’t sure what happened to her husband.
And my mom’s boyfriend of over 20 years had his marriage end when his wife figured out she was really a lesbian. I believe she has been with her wife for over 20 years, too.
What I will find intriguing will be with same sex marriage being legal in so many states, what will the divorce rates be like for same sex marriages versus heterosexual ones.
Abby Wambach has already been divorced. I know a gay couple at work that has been married and divorced since NY State legalized same sex marriages.
There have been high profile same sex marriages that are still together, as well as those that haven’t lasted.
I think everyone needs to look at being better partners. And people can be good at it or bad at it depending on who they are and how well they work with their partners.
Way too soon, indeed. I just notice it more now, and it may be little more than the internet making it easy to hear about things in a way we never did before.
To be sure, EVERYONE falls short of treating others selflessly and with unconditional love in their marriages and/or committed relationships.
There is no demographic or classification of person who never gets anything wrong. Hell, sometimes there is no wrong. Sometimes, people suffer emotionally for all kinds of reasons, and the better verbiage might be that we respond ineffectively–either to the emotions of others, or to our own emotions.
I think people are far too cynical.
I don’t believe MOST people are out to hurt others, and I think it’s insane to think that most, or even many, people would intentionally damage their marriages and/or families.
We are all just living and breathing and walking around doing our best with the tools and information we have.
We are damaged. Others are damaged. And then when we throw one another into the same room long enough, we have conflict.
Some people handle it better than others. Some people are more sensitive to the pain than others. Some people can bounce back and adjust behavior better than others. And some people seems so helplessly shutoff and closed-minded that they’ll always be as they are.
But there’s usually some story there too. Some trauma they endured that provides context for why they’re that way.
This stuff is hard. There’s no expert on human relationships in this life who doesn’t also experience hard times emotionally in their human relationships. Some of it self-inflicted.
It’s. Just. Hard.
People smoked tobacco for decades unaware of health consequences.
A lot of people suffered and died for that ignorance.
Today, people behave certain ways because they’re unaware of the dangerous and painful consequences.
In time, I believe we’ll collectively better understand these dangers, too, and humans will do an infinitely better job of treating each other in ways that sustainably healthy and productive, instead of what we do now.
It begins with awareness.
Because until the lightbulb went off for me, I didn’t see how almost everything good and bad in this life is connected to how we treat others, how we perceive others, and how we are perceived by others.
Until a critical mass of people realize that unfettered smoking will kill most of us, we’re just going to keep on doing it because it’s easier than quitting.
“And some people seems so helplessly shutoff and closed-minded that they’ll always be as they are.
But there’s usually some story there too. Some trauma they endured that provides context for why they’re that way.”
I personally need tons of help with this.
There is such a thing as “collaborative couples therapy” that has a lot to do with understanding the basis of the reaction, so that there can be more empathy. But people have to be willing to identify and express their true desires/thoughts/feelings for any of this to take place.
I need to learn how to be more gentle, more humble and more empathetic towards reactions that make me insane.
“Wrestling with Angels for more than a name”…:)
James, really good points. As with some mentioned lesbian couples (Ellen and Anne broke up b/c Ellen was cheating) same sex relationships are by no means the solution to all relationship issues. You still have to know to be a good partner…it just seems there is either a lack of awareness or just blantant stubbornness to work on that in some men..and in some women as well.
When I read this, my first instinct is to take note that you are a guy, that knows nothing about what it feels like to be a woman (who is attracted to women, or otherwise), but your message in many ways is good.
As a soon to be divorced woman, who now dates women, I can tell you that YES my ex husband could have used many of the skills that you’ve outlined, but its not just lesbians who have healthy relationships (trust me, there are crazy lesbians…many), men can learn from ANY relationship where both partners care and respect each other.
Personally, I don’t date girls cause guys are shitty (and I don’t paint guys all with one brush because my ex couldn’t hack it) I date girls, because to me, they’re amazing and sexy… Although I may have bought into the stereotypical dream for a while, even when I had it all (husband/house/kids/job etc) I was unhappy. Now I’m poor, almost divorced, probably gay and I promise you, its all about ME, not about shitty men.
Approximately 90% of this blog’s content is centered around ONE thing: Helping guys who don’t “get it,” to get it.
Not everyone wants to or cares. Which is fine.
But SOME people care. Some people are confused about why their marriages are falling apart and why they’ll spend the rest of their kids’ childhoods splitting weekends and holidays.
Divorce is hard.
At this point, this blog is mostly telling the same story over and over again in an effort to help a certain group of men see what they’re not currently seeing.
It’s exclusively about them, for their personal growth, and the general betterment of their wives and children.
This was just one more way to attempt to tell that story.
Your life is most certainly about you. I would never presume to know what your feelings and motivations are.
But this blog is about “guys like me.”
And these are the things these men should be thinking about if they want to understand why their marriages are falling apart.
Because it’s something that really matters to me.
Thank you for taking time out of your life to check this out and leave a note. I appreciate it very much.
I think its cool that you’re trying to figure things out AND share them with others. I look forward to reading more about ‘guys like you’… 🙂
To be clear, “guys like me” can be loosely translated into…
Nice-ish, smart-ish, generally well-meaning, occasionally idiotic, often immature, accidentally selfish and thoughtless dude who makes frequent relationship missteps while totally unaware they’re happening; and also argues anytime someone–especially his partner–suggests that he’s anything other than the decent, nice, smart person he thinks himself to be.
It’s sort of amusing and terrifying all at the same time, really.
So much turmoil caused by a lack of awareness. I think most people would be awesome to each other if they could magically be aware of how their words and actions affected other people.
Important things. Thanks for checking it out.
Life’s a Journey Matt and each of us has a different path to walk…as far as I’m concerned if you’re paying attention and trying to be your best self, you’re winning. And it sure sounds like you’re aware and paying attention, so good for you.
Matt,
“There is significant debate over whether sexuality is stable throughout life or is FLUID AND MALLEABLE. Scientific consensus is that sexual orientation, unlike sexual orientation identity is not a choice, sexual identity can change throughout an individual’s life, and may or may not align with biological sex…
“The results of a large-scale, longitudinal study ….indicated that stability of sexual orientation identity over a six-year period was more common than change, particularly for men, While stability may be more common than change, change in sexual orientation identity does occur and the vast majority of research indicates that FEMALE SEXUALITY IS MORE FLUID THAN MALE SEXUALITY. This could be attributed to females’ higher erotic plasticity or to sociocultural factors that socialize women to be more open to change ”
“The American Psychological Association states that sexual orientation is not a choice that can be changed at will, and that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors and is shaped at an early age.” (Wikipedia- sexual fluidity)
If we agree with the above, we are indeed in unchartered territory when it comes to expectations of what long-term monogamous marriages might look like after, perhaps twenty five years or so.
Discussions about human sexuality are usually highly charged affairs with neither side willing or able to HEAR OR LISTEN to the other. I would describe your blog as entering where “angels fear to tread”, yet it is IMPORTANT to at least entertain the notion that we may be in that terrain where opinions have to be put aside in favor of the radical notion that individual choice voiced OPENLY AND HONESTLY must carry the day.
Honestly, I don’t see this becoming a trend or being something the average husband needs to worry about. Not many wives are going to “go gay” because they are dissatisfied with their current level of marital bliss. The vast majority of women would be repulsed by the very idea.
The women referred to here are outliers, and notice that they themselves seem to be very unstable and have a lot of “issues”. Take Elizabeth Gilbert, of “Eat, Pray, Love” fame. She was married to a (by her own admission) decent man who was good to her. Yet she first refused to give him children, then cheated on him by having an affair, then walked out on him and divorced him. She then traveled to Indonesia, where she married a balding, paunchy, old man (20 years her senior) who needed to marry an American to get a Green Card.
Ten years later, she (predictably) bails on the elderly Indonesian gentleman and all of sudden realizes she’s really a lesbian! Can you say “train wreck”? Meanwhile, by all accounts her first husband is happily remarried to a young, pretty, more stable wife who has provided him with several children…certainly they seem to be a happy family. This is how it works in the real world. But not, of course, in the movies…where the balding Indonesian old man was portrayed by hottie Javier Bardem (one of the most desired men in the world)…and he and Gilbert’s character proceed to live happily ever after. That’s the propaganda.
So I wouldn’t extrapolate much from a hot mess like Elizabeth Gilbert and her ilk – she’s just too far out there in left field and has little to nothing in common with your average married woman in “flyover country”. (Though she did make a fortune on her book and subsequent movie deal…so she’s got that going for her. She and her new girlfriend will be able to afford to spoil their cats all they want!)
On another topic, I see a new season of ‘Married by Mom and Dad” is starting the Sunday after Thanksgiving. Anybody else gonna watch it? If you missed the first season, it’s available on Amazon streaming…I think you can buy the whole season for $20. There’s lots of fodder on a show like that for the issues that Matt tackles on this blog. Same could be said of “Arranged” and “Married at First Sight”.
What do you think Matt? Do you ever watch those shows? Do you think there are lessons that can be learned by observing the behavior of the people who appear in them? (On the latest season of Married at First Sight, one couple divorced after one week! Basically when they returned from their honeymoon. And this, in spite of having been paired by a panel of four relationship “experts”! Lots of gold there to mine.)
You and I disagree on many things, Jeff.
But the point of this post was not to debate the merits of people’s romantic or sexual choices, but to share with confused husbands and/or boyfriends why some women would rather be with other women than them.
In a great twist of irony, if I am to take you at your word, you do an excellent job of these four things in your marriage.
It seems to me that you already understand, fundamentally, the importance of making one’s partner feel these things.
I did NOT fundamentally understand the importance of making my partner feel these things. When she objected to things I said or did, or told me that certain behaviors of mine made her feel shitty, I FREQUENTLY told her I thought she was wrong, or mistaken, and suggested that she was silly or crazy or dumb or unreasonable or whatever for feeling whatever it is she felt.
It is my belief that MOST men do this. Maybe most people in various situations, but in male-female relationships, men are most frequently responsible.
And my conclusions are simple enough:
1. People — even many of the wives, themselves — don’t realize what’s happening as it’s happening. There is a fundamental lack of awareness people have on how to describe this dynamic of men invalidating the feelings and opinions of their spouses whenever men disagree with their wives’ or girlfriends’ conclusions.
2. This repeated fight is what most often breeds the resentment and apathy that leads to affairs and ends marriages.
3. Because divorce is hard AND because people are mostly kind/decent/well-intentioned, and because most people got married on purpose, I believe most of this accidental mistreating of people we love would stop INSTANTLY if everyone could magically feel the pain it causes others, OR had a crystal ball foretelling just how shitty and painful divorce can be for couples and children.
…
I believe most marriages would make it, and be a lot more peaceful and pleasant along the journey if people were mindful of what is discussed here, and husbands put into practice certain behaviors that would eliminate anxiety and fear in their wives’ minds and hearts.
I think the frightening truth is that most people have no idea how damaging a random Tuesday night discussion or argument can really be to their personal lives and future.
And because they don’t know, they’re not afraid of it, so nothing ever changes.
…
While I think you don’t agree with many of my conclusions, I do think (assuming you tell us the truth) that you demonstrate most of the behaviors that promote lasting, healthy marriages.
Which I ALSO think is scary, because it makes you believe that ALL men should have marriages structured like yours. And that’s A. Not practical, and B. Can only work if — like you and your wife — both parties are in total philosophical alignment.
I don’t believe molding marriage structure a particular way has ANY bearing on it’s success.
I believe two people being aware of the things they do that cause pain for their partners, and who are in total ALIGNMENT on how their marriage should work, are the people who have lasting marriages.
And I think you are someone who has shared alignment, and who meets his wife’s expectations. So it works.
But I think telling men some of the things you do spreads ideas that can be dangerous to men, women and families.
Despite our differences, I certainly applaud your long-standing marriage and wish you many, many more years.
Matt, your time and effort is valuable. Why do you bother to respond to him.
Quite frankly, I’m surprised anyone would watch those shows. I find it lowers my IQ
“And that’s A. Not practical, and B. Can only work if — like you and your wife — both parties are in total philosophical alignment.
I don’t believe molding marriage structure a particular way has ANY bearing on it’s success.”
I thought you had the strong belief that a couple should only marry if the two have significant philosophical alignment. If that is true, then it is not practical, of course, because it is unlikely that a “Jeff” will find one of the small percentage of women who would align with his perspective. If he does, then it is certainly practical.
I strongly believe that marriage structure correlates to the success of the marriage. I have a suspicion that, unfortunately, you are going to find that out the hard way.
“I don’t believe molding marriage structure a particular way has ANY bearing on it’s success. I believe two people being aware of the things they do that cause pain for their partners, and who are in total ALIGNMENT on how their marriage should work, are the people who have lasting marriages.”
I think structure is really important, Matt. It’s kind of like a foundation for your house. To this day hubby and I are complete opposites, rarely in alignment or philosophical agreement about much of anything. Besides, people change, our beliefs evolve and shift, so you need some kind of foundation that remains consistent while people change.
Semantics! You ARE in alignment about how your marriage should work. You simply wouldn’t be married if you were not.
You don’t have to vote for the same people, like the same food, share the same hobbies, listen to the same music, etc.
But on marriage, a husband and a wife must have alignment. Must have the same goals for the marriage itself. Otherwise, it ends OR two people resent one another and become roommates.
Worry not, good sir. There’s no threat of marriage around here, I assure you.
I do have the strong belief that two people should have philosophical alignment. They must be the same with one another. But I also believe two different people who share a different alignment can make it work so long as they’re both pursuing the same things and heading in the same direction.
I don’t think there is only one right way to do it. But both spouses should agree on whatever their specific way will be.
To some degree, I actually do worry for you. However, I doubt you would give much credence to my advice, so it is out of my hands. There may be no immediate “threat”(?) of marriage, however, I would be surprised if you do not marry again, which is the basis for my statement.
Thanks for the comments Matt. I certainly wish nothing but the best for you as well. You clearly believe you have made a made a lot of progress towards self-improvement over the last few years, and you have put your heart and soul into this blog. I respect that.
As far as my marriage, I suspect you’re right – the fact that wifey and me are so simpatico is def a prescription for success. Having shared values is half the battle. Love and respect is the other half. Faith and spirituality factor in as well. And of course, because none of us is perfect, a willingness to forgive.
So Matt, while you and I may disagree on the importance of traditional gender roles in marriage, I think we actually agree on a lot of other stuff. And that’s pretty cool.
Btw, what did you think about the last part of my comment…about those relationship-based reality shows? I watch them with wifey, and we’re like a couple of sports fans watching a football game…analyzing the plays and so on. It’s really fascinating (to us, anyway) to see how people who are seeking a successful marriage interact. And we learn about ourselves by pointing out where we agree and disagree with what they’re doing. It overall, quite a bit of fun and educational as well.
I personally find The Bachelor (but not the Bachelorette) to be interesting. It is not an especially good use of time but I could see these shows being the opportunity for spouses to enjoy time together and “working on their own relationship” by directly or implicitly affirming the positive relationship behaviors on the show and denouncing the negative ones.
And having a lot of laughs!
Do you ilke woman? I get from every thing you post here you don’t!
Matt,
You said, ” and just maybe while we continue to desperately cling to our Man Cards women will continue pursue the comfort and safety of other women while we complain to our buddies about their petty needs and fragile emotions as the dust collects on our furniture and we awkwardly fold another load of laundry..”
A little more than ONE HUNDRED YEARS AGO, William E. Carson wrote in “The Marriage Revolt: A Study of Marriage And Divorce”
“What reforms will society bring about when, having recognized that certain traditional features of marriage no longer fit modern conditions, it seeks to adjust ancient conceptions to its growing need rather than its need to sustain its inherited conceptions? What steps will it take to prevent unhappy marriages since it is unthinkable that society shall crudely content itself with treating the symptoms rather than the causes of the disease?
Our efforts to stem the tide of marriage failure have been spectacularly unsuccessful. Divorce rates have decreased NOT ONE IOTA since 1915 and sixty-nine percent are initiated by women. The possession of the Man Card seems to be a major factor in marital unhappiness, yet we have not been able to convince men to discard it. If we offered men a different blueprint for attaining heroic manhood would that help? Who would decide what it required as far as courage, ethical behavior, compassion, honorable sexual relationships etc. is concerned? How will we convince men that it is in their best interest to pursue such changes?
ONE HUNDRED YEARS of tears, trauma and broken families. We have accomplished so much in other areas of our civic life — cures for polio, tuberculosis DNA discoveries. electronic miracles like the internet outer space discoveries etc. why do the answers to our marital woes elude us so consistently?
Matt, I think you are doing an amazing, brave thing. You are writing and being truthful and brutally honest, and responding to the argumentative types in a nonargumentative way. Not everyone will like what you write or how you reply. So what, isn’t the reason any of us write is to help ourselves deal with things, and sometimes we share it with the world hoping to help someone feel less alone? And with nearly 8,000 followers you must be doing something right! People can choose to read or not! Whatever! Anyway don’t stop, I enjoy your perspective because I have said these things to my soon to be ex husband and he refused to hear me and you saying it helps me feel that I really was not the only woman in the world who felt this way, I really wasn’t overreacting. That means a lot to me that I am not alone.
My friends and I predicted this evolution of Glennon months ago, and especially after her friend, Elizabeth Gilbert, did the same thing. It was not surprising at all to us.
What does surprise me is how inauthentic Glennon was about the entire separation and how they’ve been coexisting since. I have friends who are going through separations and divorces who are really quite angry that she portrayed her and Craig as this amazing. enlightened couple who can be so supportive and loving to each other even as they divorce. Co-parenting, selfies, dinners, etc…The reality seems to be that she was in a relationship with Amy from the very start of the separation, and that is an ENTIRELY different scenario than what most people experience. I think she did a real disservice to the people going through more “traditional” separations who were led to think something was wrong with them for barely being able to see their spouse much less sit down to a family dinner. I guess she was entitled to keep this information to herself as long as she wanted, but it did have some consequences for her readers in that regard.
“My friends and I predicted this evolution of Glennon months ago, and especially after her friend, Elizabeth Gilbert, did the same thing. It was not surprising at all to us.”
It seems that women especially have a tendency to be influenced by the relationship behavior of their friends. This would seem to be an example. My perception is that when one woman in a social group initiates a divorce, it is common for others to follow that lead. I don’t think this follow-the-leader behavior benefits many.
I don’t think it’s specific to women, though. I’ve seen it happen plenty among male friends, too. What makes you say women “especially?”
And back to Glennon for a minute – I was a fan for a long time, but I gotta say…. at this point, she strikes me very much as someone who just thrives in chaos. Addiction, an eating disorder, promiscuity, a rushed and troubled marriage, a separation, a reconciliation, and now a same sex relationship and divorce. It’s just….a lot. I’m not sure of all the very complicated reasons for that or what came first (drama seeking because her young life was so filled with it that she doesn’t feel comfortable without it? Were the addiction and eating disorder a cause or effect?), but she never seems to maintain a period of peace for long. Perhaps she’s found her peace with Amy. I kinda doubt it though.
Wifey, In defense of Glennon (as if what we think really matters at all…),
All the things you listed were over a greater than 15 year span of time…maybe even 20-30 because her bulimia started at such an early age. (If I recall).
And that is the whole point anyway.
Life is painful, there are things out of your control, embrace life for what it is- live fully.
The people who love you wont stop loving you because you are you.
I think Glennon is beautiful and an example of how to fully embrace and live your life.
Doesn’t mean she isn’t ever wrong, or doesn’t makes mistakes.
It just means she does the best she can for the given day.
I hear you. I can’t even fully explain exactly why I’m skeptical of her right now. But that’s just how I’ve been feeling lately. I liked the latest book, and I still read her posts. She does an amazing service to many people through her writing and charitable work, but I’m just feeling “off” about her now, and it started way before this recent announcement for me, so that’s not it.
I shared a Glennon quote in a post a while back.
It talked about how people who do public speaking tend to be on the other side of whatever Life event they endured to make them someone people gather to listen to.
People are healthy and happy and balanced again. They are neat. Polished. Put together.
It’s kind of like a show. It’s putting the best-possible face on someone, which is great, I guess, but runs counter to who I perceive Glennon to be.
She is MESSY.
And that doesn’t make her unique. That makes her a human being. Just like me. And I find that most people are too ashamed to talk about the messy shit. But what helps all the Messy People heal is to connect with other people, not feel alone, and learn that it’s NORMAL and OKAY to fall apart and be imperfect.
Almost everyone has moments of falling apart. Certainly, everyone is imperfect.
Glennon bravely wears that imperfection, even when it’s inconvenient. She’s NOT trying to please everyone, which is always a sure-fire way to fail. She’s simply trying to be as real in whatever moment she’s in as possible, because REAL is what people connect to, and REAL is what helps people heal and move past the things in life that cut the deepest and hurt the most.
Glennon doesn’t make excuses. She doesn’t rationalize. She doesn’t hide much.
She stands up in front of people and says “Here I am. Here’s the most honest story I can tell about me.”
And then people in the audience, or listening to her interview, or reading her books or blog posts or whatever–NOT everyone (nothing is ever for everyone), but for the right people at the right time–they get to see and hear and feel another human being tell the same story that they ALSO feel.
The connection that forms when you find a kindred spirit, or when you find someone who has been where you are and felt what you felt… it’s just incredibly powerful and important.
It’s a gift EVERYONE can give other people. All you have to be is be courageous enough to talk about the things most of us would prefer other people not know about us.
Glennon, as bravely and beautifully as anyone I’ve ever seen or heard of, puts herself–her REAL, actual, in-the-moment, imperfect self–on display to connect with others, help them heal, and almost surely, help herself heal as well.
Glennon said something like, and I’m paraphrase free-wheeling here, so the quote marks don’t mean what they shoud… “It’s easy to show up once all of the wounds have closed and the pain has gone away. But it’s difficult to show up in The During. As the shit is happening. But maybe that’s what people need. For more people to show up in the during.”
I think she’s right. And I think that matters.
I share the instinctual reaction of “Whoa! This is different, and I don’t like it, because new and different is uncomfortable!”
But when I really think about it?
Here’s someone showing up as she is, her personal life rawly exposed to the judgment of others, and her personal finances subject to their potential protest.
Whether Glennon and I agree or disagree on any particular subject is irrelevant to me, because authenticity and realness–for me–usurps my desire for shared beliefs or opinions.
The woman demonstrates REMARKABLE courage.
I’ll always admire such things.
“I share the instinctual reaction of “Whoa! This is different, and I don’t like it, because new and different is uncomfortable!”
That’s actually not at all how I feel. Messy isn’t uncomfortable for me. I live in San Francisco for god’s sake; people are loud and proud with their messy all over the place. Everyone’s got a therapist or a guru or a yoga instructor and a million inspirational quotes on Facebook each day to help them through all their trauma. We go big out here. It’s almost competitive. LOL!
I “get” Glennon, trust me. That’s why I’ve read her since before her Don’t Carpe Diem post went viral. It’s not that I must not understand what she’s doing and why it’s important. In spite of that, I STILL feel that she’s become a bit of a marketing machine and not as authentic as she claims to be.
‘I don’t think it’s specific to women, though. I’ve seen it happen plenty among male friends, too. What makes you say women “especially?”’
It’s my belief that women are far more likely than men to share details of their relationships with their friends. Generally, negativity leads others to negativity. So, one woman deciding to divorce increases the likelihood of her friends divorcing. If there is evidence to support this, I am unaware of where it can be found.
I can’t say that I’ve ever seen men choosing divorce soon after seeing one of their friends choosing divorce. In the case of your male friends, did they choose the divorce or did their wives? If it was the wives and they were friends (through the husbands), then it would also seem to fit the situation I described.
Well, I agree with you that men don’t share details as often. That’s why I think they also tend to follow examples set by friends. I definitely know couples where the men leave and cite some guy they know that appears to be living an amazing life, dating, living alone, doing whatever the heck he’d like, as proof that it will all be okay and he’ll be happier. And because men don’t share the nitty gritty of what it’s REALLY like to leave a marriage, they think it sounds pretty good.
Hi wifey!
You said:
“The reality seems to be that she was in a relationship with Amy from the very start of the separation, and that is an ENTIRELY different scenario than what most people experience.”
I’m wondering, what makes you conclude that though? It’s likely Glennon decided to separate from Craig some time before she told her readers. And couldn’t Glennon have started seeing Amy a while after that again? (I would agree with you, it’s still very fast. Maybe it’s different since she and Craig already were separated for a long time once.)
Some folks that spend much more time than me online seem to have traced back some social media pictures to right at the time she claimed to have separated. It’s creepy that people do this, but they do, and then they post on message boards about it. I saw these message board posts about the 2 of them wearing necklaces for each other as far back as August. Something along those lines. But yeah, it could have been that she separated from Craig way before she actually posted about it. So who knows??
I see, thanks for getting back to me.
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The term you are looking for is bisexual, bisexual, bisexual woman are choosing woman over men because men start insane cults and have out of touch with reality theories about what makes a woman pick a person. Heck, Biblical Gender Roles, that hellsite makes me gayer every time I look. Just being honest
You know what makes woman choose woman, first thing, woman don’t do trash cult of assumptions “how to get in a girls pants” red pill rad trad i will cry sob manipulate fill you with fear to get inside you bullshit, reading that makes me gay, reading all woman like alpha’s while Mr Robot is the most charming man on television makes me gay, reading about dread game made me really gay, reading somehow woman have any authority when America feels weird about voting in a skilled female for president and would rather vote in a satient caps lock button makes me gay, rational male dot stupid and biblical gender roles dot idiot and the red pill community makes me gay, I’ve been abused by woman but I’d trust them over man since reading the filth on certain communities, that filfth which says its better to beat and put the fear of god in someone to make them love you, and at the end of the day they will hate you for being like that. Its all trash and this little website and its pro relationship and communication message is the only evidence I have seen that men are worth anything. Its a shame other commuters on this web site are so hostile to learning to make and keep friends and wives!
Very thoughtful and well written. Good advice to take to heart. If I may, I’d suggest that you also write one from the opposite point of view to help women better understand what men want because there seems to be a communication gap there too. I appreciate what you are trying to do though… the world needs stuff like this. Thanks for sharing.
I’ve been telling my friends forever that I want a wife and not a husband. Someone that will help me with the kids, dishes, laundry etc. I’ll even be a good wife and not just lay around on the couch watching football while she does everything. Not attracted to women but living with one sounds about heavenly right now.
I hate to inform you that your evaluation of women leaving husbands for other women due to a male failure at relationship skills is incorrect.
Women are also leaving good marriages for lesbian relationships in roughly equal numbers as bad relationships. You are also failing to eliminate the variable of female self sabotage in the relationship in order to generate a reason to leave.
In other words. They want out, and unconsciously provoke negative behaviors in the male by emasculation and rejection. The male unknowingly begins to retaliate, giving the woman her out. None of it is conscious. None done out of malice. It’s just a maladaptive behavior.
You are oversimplifying a rather complex sociological issue by falling into a trap of placing blame, rather than finding an underlying cause of behavior.
Because they are lesbians
Best thing I’ve read all year.
Reblogged this on A Walk with God, through Marriage, Family and Personal Life.
Add Elizabeth Gilbert onto the list of this as well. She wrote extensively about her relationship with her husband Philippe, and then left him for another woman as well.